Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:10 pm**

Thanks for the link! I'll eplore that soon.

As for this:

It's not like you could write Middle Korean using Chinese characters phonetically only, the way the Japanese did with kana.

This was only true for later Idu. In the Three Kingdoms and Silla period, it was common to write entire Korean sentences using only phonograms. In both Hyangchal and Idu.

Thanks again!

Posted: **Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:45 pm**

Something weird is happening to me. I sometimes misunderstand French speakers when they use English words.

The English FACE vowel is usually pronounced [ɛj] by French speakers, which I consider an acceptable realization. But they sometimes simplify it to [e] or [ɛ]. And this is where the misunderstandings begin.

Friends: We played a board game the other day. It's called [kɔd ˈnɛm].
Me: Code Nem? What is it? A game where you own a Vietnamese restaurant?
Friends: No, it's about spies. (They show me the box.)
Me: Oh, it's actually Code Names.

Friends: There's a new song by [dʒeˈzi].
Me: Djézi? Who's that?
Friends: What, you don't know who [dʒeˈzi] is??
Me: Nope, doesn't ring a bell.
Friends: He's one of the most famous American rappers!
Me: Oh, you mean Jay-Z.

Posted: **Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:15 pm**

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:45 pm Something weird is happening to me. I sometimes misunderstand French speakers when they use English words.

The English FACE vowel is usually pronounced [ɛj] by French speakers, which I consider an acceptable realization. But they sometimes simplify it to [e] or [ɛ]. And this is where the misunderstandings begin.

Friends: We played a board game the other day. It's called [kɔd ˈnɛm].
Me: Code Nem? What is it? A game where you own a Vietnamese restaurant?
Friends: No, it's about spies. (They show me the box.)
Me: Oh, it's actually Code Names.

Friends: There's a new song by [dʒeˈzi].
Me: Djézi? Who's that?
Friends: What, you don't know who [dʒeˈzi] is??
Me: Nope, doesn't ring a bell.
Friends: He's one of the most famous American rappers!
Me: Oh, you mean Jay-Z.

Thing is, to me [e] and even [e̞] are perfectly valid pronunciations of /eɪ/ ([e̞] is my normal realization), whereas [ɛ] would confuse me to no end because I would hear it as either /ɛ/ or /æ/.

And yes, I would probably hear [dʒeˈzi] as Jay-Z unless the [e] was pronounced rather short, where then I might just get confused.

Posted: **Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 pm**

Well, if French speakers could consistently pronounce DRESS as [ɛ] and FACE as [e], it would work. But it's not natural: with a Parisian accent at least, /e/ and /ɛ/ can only contrast in final unchecked syllables... which is precisely the position where they can't contrast in English. By comparison, in my experience, French speakers tend to semi-consistently contrast [ɔ] for LOT and [o~ow] for GOAT. Even Southerners who don't really have the [o/ɔ] contrast in their native accent.

For [dʒeˈzi], the problem was that I didn't register it as an English-language name.

Posted: **Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:39 pm**

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 pm For [dʒeˈzi], the problem was that I didn't register it as an English-language name.

What part of the world did you think it came from?

Posted: **Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:03 pm**

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 pmBut it's not natural: with a Parisian accent at least, /e/ and /ɛ/ can only contrast in final unchecked syllables

This is probably revealing my terrible accent— but how do you say connaître? My dictionary has it as [kɔnɛtʀ(ə)]. While we're at it, what's connaissons? [kɔnesõ]?

Posted: **Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:36 pm**

I use monophthong pronunciations myself in any language for such words and prefer when others do too, especially for my own name. It's James, not Jeillemes.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:48 am**

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:39 pm
Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 pm For [dʒeˈzi], the problem was that I didn't register it as an English-language name.
What part of the world did you think it came from?

I dunno. Could've been anything. It could come from Arabic or an African language, or be completely invented. We are talking about a musician's name: many musicians use weird stage names, especially in hip-hop or electronic music.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:03 pm This is probably revealing my terrible accent— but how do you say connaître? My dictionary has it as [kɔnɛtʀ(ə)]. While we're at it, what's connaissons? [kɔnesõ]?

connaître [konɛtʀ(ə)], can be [konɛt] in quick speech.
connaissons [konesõ]
[o] and [ɔ] don't really contrast in non-final syllables.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:36 pm I use monophthong pronunciations myself in any language for such words and prefer when others do too, especially for my own name. It's James, not Jeillemes.

Are you OK with [dʒɛms]?

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:12 am**

I have [ɔ] for both. Probably traces of a Northern accent - or hypercorrection?- my wife and kids have [o].

English vowels are really difficult for French speakers. The sort of misunderstanding Ryusenshi mentions makes me think of this classic skit:

https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DOzcee ... i43x0hWh7l

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:27 am**

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:12 am I have [ɔ] for both. Probably traces of a Northern accent - or hypercorrection?- my wife and kids have [o].

English vowels are really difficult for French speakers. The sort of misunderstanding Ryusenshi mentions makes me think of this classic skit:

https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DOzcee ... i43x0hWh7l

That link doesn’t work for me. Corrected one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzceerVqM60. (Plus, it’s funny even if you don’t speak French!)

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:35 am**

What's the term for verbs of motion which obligatorily require a complement expressing goal or direction? (I want to say "telic" but I know that telicity is something slightly different.)

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:54 am**

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:35 am What's the term for verbs of motion which obligatorily require a complement expressing goal or direction? (I want to say "telic" but I know that telicity is something slightly different.)

Transitive?

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:08 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:54 am
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:35 am What's the term for verbs of motion which obligatorily require a complement expressing goal or direction? (I want to say "telic" but I know that telicity is something slightly different.)
Transitive?

I've only ever heard "transitive" used for verbs which require direct objects, not other sorts of complements.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:00 pm**

I've actually seen "transitive" used for this sometimes in certain syntax textbooks, even when the complements have some oblique marking such as a preposition, but I dislike that usage.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:10 pm**

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:48 am
MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:36 pm I use monophthong pronunciations myself in any language for such words and prefer when others do too, especially for my own name. It's James, not Jeillemes.
Are you OK with [dʒɛms]?

Yes, I prefer that to the diphthong and semivowel forms.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:19 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:27 amThe sort of misunderstanding Ryusenshi mentions makes me think of this classic skit:

When I was a student, our English teacher said the word serial killer. All students knew this film, so we went "un quoi??". The teacher didn't get it.

Related: I once said something in English to my sister-in-law: maybe I was quoting a movie, or a song, I don't remember. She said "Sorry, I don't understand anything when you speak in English". I was miffed. I said the same thing with a heavy French accent: "Oh, now I get it."

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:48 pm**

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:19 pm

Related: I once said something in English to my sister-in-law: maybe I was quoting a movie, or a song, I don't remember. She said "Sorry, I don't understand anything when you speak in English". I was miffed. I said the same thing with a heavy French accent: "Oh, now I get it."

I feel your pain!

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:54 pm**

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:19 pm Related: I once said something in English to my sister-in-law: maybe I was quoting a movie, or a song, I don't remember. She said "Sorry, I don't understand anything when you speak in English". I was miffed. I said the same thing with a heavy French accent: "Oh, now I get it."

In reverse, I find just about anything spoken by a native speaker in a Romance language to be gibberish. Not as in I don't understand the words, but as in they do not sound like distinct words in the first place. On the other hand, though, StG to me actually sounds like distinct words that ought to make sense even when I don't understand them, and if I look up the words in question, if I hear the same again (e.g. in a song) I can make it out just fine.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:40 pm**

MFW people complain about French people pronouncing English and I've lived my adult life in East Asia.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:55 pm**

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:40 pm MFW people complain about French people pronouncing English and I've lived my adult life in East Asia.

Yeah, but in this case, half the people making the complaints seem to be French themselves!

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