Zompist Bboard Again

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:01 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:28 am In the village where I grew up, my parents, at least when talking to us children, used terms like Onkel Herbert or Tante Anni for neighbours, even though they weren't related.

In American English, we even have the term "Dutch uncle" for someone you treat like an uncle (and perhaps even refer to with the title "uncle") but isn't actually related.

My Dutch uncle is "Uncle Tom", who is no relation to me but I think lived with my greatgrandparents at some point in the distant past. (I'm kind of hazy on the connexion at this point and my father is dead so I can no longer ask him.)

I never got the use of "Dutch" as an adjective in this fashion, and wondered why it was used this way, until I learned that the English used it as a pejorative supposedly because of rivalry between the English and the Dutch in the mid-17th century... (but since growing up I did not really identify very much with the English, it seemed odd).

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:01 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:28 am In the village where I grew up, my parents, at least when talking to us children, used terms like Onkel Herbert or Tante Anni for neighbours, even though they weren't related.

In American English, we even have the term "Dutch uncle" for someone you treat like an uncle (and perhaps even refer to with the title "uncle") but isn't actually related.

I've never heard of a "Dutch Uncle"...though I know a few people who would qualify as the uncles (or aunts) under your description (italicized by me)

I think the restriction is that the person has to be a friend of one's parents.

For comparison, my sister had a few good friends who she considered sisters (though were as unrelated as could be)...but her friends' parents were never Aunt or Uncle (or Mom or Dad) to either her or myself.

I would interpret calling non-relatives "uncle" or "auntie" a feature of Chinese, South Asian, or Caribbean cultural influence, and probably a few others I'm not aware of. I never hear it from "native born" Americans.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:59 pm I would interpret calling non-relatives "uncle" or "auntie" a feature of Chinese, South Asian, or Caribbean cultural influence, and probably a few others I'm not aware of.

South African also (both white and black, as I recall).

In France, we call them cousins in the Brittany style (cousins à la mode de Bretagne)...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:42 pm
I never got the use of "Dutch" as an adjective in this fashion, and wondered why it was used this way, until I learned that the English used it as a pejorative supposedly because of rivalry between the English and the Dutch in the mid-17th century... (but since growing up I did not really identify very much with the English, it seemed odd).

Once a feature of a language - or any other aspect of culture, for that matter - has been established, it won't necessarily go away on its own just because the reason why it had originally appeared in the first place has gone away.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:59 pm I would interpret calling non-relatives "uncle" or "auntie" a feature of Chinese, South Asian, or Caribbean cultural influence, and probably a few others I'm not aware of. I never hear it from "native born" Americans.

I think it was more common in the UK at one time, but I don't think many people under 50 would have, unless they had parents without many siblings & close friends.

RichardFromMarple wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:57 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:59 pm I would interpret calling non-relatives "uncle" or "auntie" a feature of Chinese, South Asian, or Caribbean cultural influence, and probably a few others I'm not aware of. I never hear it from "native born" Americans.

I think it was more common in the UK at one time, but I don't think many people under 50 would have, unless they had parents without many siblings & close friends.

we had an "uncle" growing up, my dad's longtime friend and business partner. i think at least a couple of my friends had similar situations too. never an "aunt" though. and i've never heard it called "dutch" anything

RichardFromMarple wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:57 pm I think it was more common in the UK at one time, but I don't think many people under 50 would have, unless they had parents without many siblings & close friends.

Certainly part of my culture (I'm from the UK) and also part of my wife's - she's from Thailand, so bracketed by the Sinosphere and the Indosphere.

jal wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:12 am

hwhatting wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:10 amFor me, my grandparents were Oma and Opa on both sides; if I needed to differentiate, I just added their first names.

That's interesting, my gransparents (from both sides) would've very much disapproved the use of their first names, it was not done (I also sietzte them, as was common in those days), so we distinguished them by their surnames. My kids however do refer to my parents and my inlaws using their first names, and dutzen them. When speaking directly to them they only use "oma" and "opa" though.

When was that? The last one in my family who had to use formal pronouns with his parents (specifically, his father - with his mother he seems to have used du as long as my mother was aware) was my grandfather (b. 1907); my mother's generation (born in the 40s) used informal pronouns with elder relatives.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:51 am I've only recently gotten used to dropping kinship terms when speaking to relatives in my mom's generation, e.g. calling her sister simply "Barb" instead of "Aunt Barb". I think that reflects how conservative that branch of the family is in general.

In my family, I never dropped the Onkel / Tante (plus first name) with relatives of my grandparents' generation; with the relatives of my mother's generation, it was a rite of passage - when I was in my mid-teens, they told me to drop the Onkel / Tante and just use first names. (Actually, both of my parents were only children, so I technically didn't have uncles and aunts, but we called great-uncles and great-aunts and my mother's cousin and his wife Onkel / Tante as well.)
My daughter is on first-names terms with my brother and my wife's Kazakh siblings since an early age.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:28 am In the village where I grew up, my parents, at least when talking to us children, used terms like Onkel Herbert or Tante Anni for neighbours, even though they weren't related.

My grandparents did that as well, my parents didn't. But it was still usual in the village where I grew up in the 70s; other children and their parents did that. But that stopped at some point in elementary school, from which point children were expected to use Herr / Frau plus last names and the formal pronoun with grown-ups that weren' relatives or close family friends.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:01 pm In American English, we even have the term "Dutch uncle" for someone you treat like an uncle (and perhaps even refer to with the title "uncle") but isn't actually related.

My Dutch uncle is "Uncle Tom", who is no relation to me but I think lived with my greatgrandparents at some point in the distant past. (I'm kind of hazy on the connexion at this point and my father is dead so I can no longer ask him.)

We had a good friend of my father whom we called Onkel Wolfgang; I actually only found out that he wasn't a relative in my pre-teens. At some point my father and he lost contact, otherwise I guess I'd have progressed to just first names with him at some point during my teens.
All this calling non-relatives Onkel / Tante has very much gone out of fashion in Germany; I don't think German children born from the 90s onwards are even familiar with this custom.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 5:04 amWhen was that? The last one in my family who had to use formal pronouns with his parents (specifically, his father - with his mother he seems to have used du as long as my mother was aware) was my grandfather (b. 1907); my mother's generation (born in the 40s) used informal pronouns with elder relatives.

My parents are from shortly after the war ('46/'47), so I would assume it was then still quite common to use formal pronouns ("u/uw") with one's parents. However, there could still have been a difference between how my parents addressed their parents, and how their children addressed their parents, of course.

Note that even today, although no-one would use formal pronouns with their parents, using them with your in-laws isn't that uncommon (I dodged that bullet as I already knew them in a familar setting before getting involved with their daughter).

EDIT: Parents of friends have always been "u" as well, and still are.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:13 am

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 5:04 amWhen was that? The last one in my family who had to use formal pronouns with his parents (specifically, his father - with his mother he seems to have used du as long as my mother was aware) was my grandfather (b. 1907); my mother's generation (born in the 40s) used informal pronouns with elder relatives.

My parents are from shortly after the war ('46/'47), so I would assume it was then still quite common to use formal pronouns ("u/uw") with one's parents. However, there could still have been a difference between how my parents addressed their parents, and how their children addressed their parents, of course.

Hm, from what I've heard about Dutch history, it sounds to me like they might have grown up when verzuiling was still a thing? Could their manners in that regard be a pillar-specific thing?

jal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:13 am Note that even today, although no-one would use formal pronouns with their parents, using them with your in-laws isn't that uncommon (I dodged that bullet as I already knew them in a familar setting before getting involved with their daughter).

I don't have German in-laws, but from what I can see among friends or taking usage in German programs on TV into account, it seems to be usual to move from Sie on first acquaintance to du after an unspecified period, like you would with good acquaintances who are older than you (and it would be up to the older persons to offer that, but also somewhat expected from them after a certain duration of acquaintance).

Parents of friends have always been "u" as well, and still are.

That's also what I'm used to. These are also the only persons with whom asymmetric addressing after childhood is known in Germany (at least in my experience) - when they know you from childhood, they may continue to use du, while you address them as Sie.
In Kazakhstan, and generally in the Russian-speaking sphere, asymmetric addressing, where older or higher status people use the informal pronoun while younger or lower status adults respond using the formal pronoun, is much more common. So I used the formal pronoun with my parents-in-law (both now deceased) while they used the informal pronoun with me. With my Kazakh nephews and nieces it's the other way round.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:59 pm I would interpret calling non-relatives "uncle" or "auntie" a feature of Chinese, South Asian, or Caribbean cultural influence, and probably a few others I'm not aware of. I never hear it from "native born" Americans.

I'm not sure about that. I know a number of New Englanders (mostly likely of Italian ancestry, but not recently--and not to my knowledge of Chinese, South Asian, or Caribbean ancestry) who not only use Aunt/Uncle for unrelated family friends, but whose young children do as well. I myself grew up calling a couple at my church Aunt So-and-so and Uncle So-and-so. Not common among white Midwesterners, but they were from out east and to my knowledge asked to be referred to that way. (she's Finnish, he's generic white American, by which I mean I haven't the faintest clue what his specific ancestry is)

I've read that the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" as titles got racialised in the Southern USA (because of course it did), being used with given names for African-Americans since the pattern "Mister"/"Missus"/"Miss" + surname was reserved for white folks. If true, it would explain why this pattern isn't common in most of the country, since due to those associations, using "Aunt" or "Uncle" with white non-relatives could be considered infra dig and using it with Black non-relatives in the post-Civil Rights era would come off as patronising or even insulting. (Outside of the South, the association of this practice with Southern migrants would lead to it being stigmatised in the Midwest and West.)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:06 am I've read that the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" as titles got racialised in the Southern USA (because of course it did), being used with given names for African-Americans since the pattern "Mister"/"Missus"/"Miss" + surname was reserved for white folks. If true, it would explain why this pattern isn't common in most of the country, since due to those associations, using "Aunt" or "Uncle" with white non-relatives could be considered infra dig and using it with Black non-relatives in the post-Civil Rights era would come off as patronising or even insulting. (Outside of the South, the association of this practice with Southern migrants would lead to it being stigmatised in the Midwest and West.)

At least here, "Mister"/"Missus"/"Miss" was highly associated for talking about teachers and the parents of kids one knew in school. Many of my teachers I never knew their first names because they were always "Mister"/"Missus"/"Miss" and the same goes with many of the parents of people I knew as a kid. The same persists today when talking about teachers (e.g. my daughter's; she always uses them to refer to her teachers), but besides that "Mister"/"Missus"/"Miss" has kind of fallen by the wayside for people of my generation.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:20 amHm, from what I've heard about Dutch history, it sounds to me like they might have grown up when verzuiling was still a thing? Could their manners in that regard be a pillar-specific thing?

No, I don't think so. Can't imagine e.g. Catholics not using "u" (the formal pronoun), while the Reformed would use "u". I think using "u" to address one's parents was just still very common in the 50s, as was addressing grandparents like that when the boomers' kids (like me) grew up in the 70s and 80s. However, I didn't know many kids of my generation that used "u" with their parents, though I vaguely recall there was one family in my street where the kids did that. It was a mixed bag with regards to addressing neighbours etc., some kids using "je", others using "u".


JAL

What do you call the roof over a porch or a verandah?

StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:02 pm What do you call the roof over a porch or a verandah?

The only word that really comes to mind is awning.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:02 pm

StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:02 pm What do you call the roof over a porch or a verandah?

The only word that really comes to mind is awning.

"Awning" for me implies removable, usually cloth. But the roof of these structures is generally permanent, made of wood or even stone and brick. I think I'd be most like to stay "porch roof". If it's a narrow enough veranda and the roof is integrated well into the greater structure I might call it the "eaves".

Do you have some example images?