Zompist Bboard Again

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:13 pmhumans don't do sexual things on instinct? then what are "wet dreams"?

Sure, but that is quite a long way from knowing how to copulate in a way that results in pregnancy.

the born this way school of thought argues against that.

I did say mostly learned rather than entirely. We are born with sexual attraction to people of certain genders but what features make someone masculine or feminine vary between cultures and must be learned.

it turns out that, even animals we long thought were solitary - such as bull elephants - actually have societies of their own, even if they interact little with the matriarchal clans, the elder bulls still impart wisdom (about learned behaviors, about sex, about migration routes, etc) to the younger males.

Well ok, but there must surely be some genuinely solitary animals.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:44 pm I did say mostly learned rather than entirely. We are born with sexual attraction to people of certain genders but what features make someone masculine or feminine vary between cultures and must be learned.

Huh?

For reproductive purposes all that matters is two fertile people with functioning parts.

I'm baffled by what you think has to be learned.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:08 pmHuh?

For reproductive purposes all that matters is two fertile people with functioning parts.

I'm baffled by what you think has to be learned.

One person has to stick their penis into the vagina of the other person and ejaculate. Personally it would never occur to me to try that myself without knowing about it. Perhaps I am simply in the minority here though.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:44 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:13 pmhumans don't do sexual things on instinct? then what are "wet dreams"?

Sure, but that is quite a long way from knowing how to copulate in a way that results in pregnancy.

not sure its entirely a learned thing...given that teen pregnancy rates are higher in US states which don't have lessons in reproduction.

it turns out that, even animals we long thought were solitary - such as bull elephants - actually have societies of their own, even if they interact little with the matriarchal clans, the elder bulls still impart wisdom (about learned behaviors, about sex, about migration routes, etc) to the younger males.

Well ok, but there must surely be some genuinely solitary animals.

there are: the worms that live in the seafloor, and release their butts to swim around in the water to mate without the rest of the worms.

or is that too social for your definition? *i is curious*

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:20 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:08 pmHuh?

For reproductive purposes all that matters is two fertile people with functioning parts.

I'm baffled by what you think has to be learned.

One person has to stick their penis into the vagina of the other person and ejaculate. Personally it would never occur to me to try that myself without knowing about it. Perhaps I am simply in the minority here though.

thats where the phrase keep trying til you get it right (or "experiment" instead of "trying") comes from/comes in.

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:20 pmthats where the phrase keep trying til you get it right (or "experiment" instead of "trying") comes from/comes in.

Sure but most animals don't have to experiment at all. They instinctively know how to copulate and simply do it.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:13 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:20 pmthats where the phrase keep trying til you get it right (or "experiment" instead of "trying") comes from/comes in.

Sure but most animals don't have to experiment at all. They instinctively know how to copulate and simply do it.

You're confusing yourself with your 18th century philosophy of mind. Stop assuming that "animals" are totally different from humans; stop saying "instinct" when you don't know what human behaviors are instinctual or not, or what an instinct feels like.

Now, evolution is not a designer, but its results are similar to a somewhat sloppy engineer. Genes that work spread; genes that fail die out. Creatures that cannot figure out how to reproduce will die out; that's why evolution figured this stuff out two billion years ago. There's a pretty wide margin of error: not all members of a species must reproduce; "instincts" (i.e. hereditary, unlearned behaviors) don't need to be foolproof; many behaviors can or must be practiced till they work.

Why would the ability to reproduce without extensive classroom education evolve out of humans? Why would that anti-reproductive genetic strategy spread and take over?

Again, sex is not that hard to figure out. It's hard to explain without writing soft-core porn, so just take my word for it. Let me put it this way: our bodies suggest what to do, in sequence. (That is, the first step is not "stick the penis into the vagina". The first step is more like "try to spend more time with this person who is really enthralling.")

rip to shelley duvall, one of the all-time greats. if you haven't seen 3 Women, do yourself a favor and watch it this weekend

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:13 pm Sure but most animals don't have to experiment at all. They instinctively know how to copulate and simply do it.

It's not unusual for animals to be kind of uncertain or seemingly unenthusiastic about the process though. I think people who breed domestic animals, or try to breed wild animals in captivity face that sort of problem at least occasionally.

as with humans
who increasingly practice sterile sexuality
in a world too alienating for them,

caged animals
who do not support this
are probably not likely to reproduce
their captivity for their putative offspring...

this may be their best Darwinian choice

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:13 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:20 pmthats where the phrase keep trying til you get it right (or "experiment" instead of "trying") comes from/comes in.

Sure but most animals don't have to experiment at all. They instinctively know how to copulate and simply do it.

paolo worm =/= human

its weird you didn't think there was a difference between them, as marine worms don't worry about politics and impending dictatorships lasting til doomsday.

If you insist. I will just have to accept that I am very much an outlier here in having no clear sexual instincts. That hardly surprises me since I have always known I am quite different psychologically than most people. I suppose the question has been answered to my satisfaction.

malloc wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:05 am If you insist. I will just have to accept that I am very much an outlier here in having no clear sexual instincts.

Except you just answered your own question: if something is clear, its not an instinct. And no matter where you and I are on the spectrum, our instincts don't activate because we conciously want them to - thats either Buddha levels of self-mastery, or not an instinct.

That hardly surprises me since I have always known I am quite different psychologically than most people.

just because you don't go around openly lusting after everything with two legs, doesn't mean you don't have instincts.

malloc wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:05 am If you insist. I will just have to accept that I am very much an outlier here in having no clear sexual instincts. That hardly surprises me since I have always known I am quite different psychologically than most people. I suppose the question has been answered to my satisfaction.

No, I don't think so myself. Human beings are social animals so I'm not confident the question can really be explained. A situation where two human beings would be raised in complete isolation and don't have the opportunity to see animal behavior is hard to conceive, and it's not clear the results would be reproducible anyway (ie, chances are the couple would figure it out but I wouldn't be surprised if different pairs reacted differently.)

And I'm really not sure this is exceptional in the animal kingdom. I'm sure we'd find lots of evidence that poorly socialized animals have trouble with reproduction.

I'd like to point out that we thought pandas were bad at reproducing. Then we realized they had some pretty specific mating rituals. The young in captivity learned how to mate from "panda porn" but because we didn't know the rituals that lead up to mating until recently, it was still hard to actually get them interested. Now that we know a bit more about wild panda mating habits, people raising and breeding pandas in captivity can better help pandas act on these mating rituals.

Being pretty ace myself, I don't think I personally would figure out sex on my own, nor would I be interested. But it's pretty obvious that most humans, even if they don't know what they're feeling or know what sex can lead to, still can figure out 1) certain things make them feel good, 2) certain people make them feel a way that leads to those good feelings if acted on, 3) certain parts on their partner make their partner feel good and are more enticing in that state of mind, 4) so they might as well do stuff that both sides enjoy at the same time. Which often leads to possibly reproductive sex.

In a normal population, some of these factors can be a little off and enough people would still figure it out without help, or a little push in the right direction.

A 78-hour recording of the Collected Works of Karl Marx (I do this for many authors) at a speed only I can understand: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11QGw94 ... sp=sharing This is text-to-speech, and no attempt has been made to change the text or the formatting to suit the voice.

I'm convinced there's a very humorous remark just out of my reach combining (1) discovering how to perform coitis and (2) recent developments in "artificial intelligence". Hot ChatGPT action here!!!

ahem, I'll go and wash my face in cold water.

alice wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 2:55 pm I'm convinced there's a very humorous remark just out of my reach combining (1) discovering how to perform coitis and (2) recent developments in "artificial intelligence". Hot ChatGPT action here!!!

ahem, I'll go and wash my face in cold water.

I wonder when we achieve AGI how the newly sentient AI('s) will approach the subject of human sex.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 3:34 pm I wonder when we achieve AGI how the newly sentient AI('s) will approach the subject of human sex.

Stanisław Lem robot: "That's disgusting"
Hajime Sorayama robot: "Let's join in!"
Star Trek/Wars robot: "Humans are peculiar"

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 3:34 pmI wonder when we achieve AGI how the newly sentient AI('s) will approach the subject of human sex.

I would have to imagine that beings of pure intellect would regard sexuality with disdain, a grotesque relic of our animal heritage.

I found this amusing. Peter Gleick found this NPR news report

NPR wrote:The world population is predicted to peak at about 10.3 billion people in the 2080s, according to a report released Thursday by the United Nations.

The agency's 2024 World Population Prospects study projects the population will begin to fall after that, to about 10.2 billion people by the century’s end. Though, immigration can help slow the decrease.

and commented "From where? Alpha Centauri?"