Zompist Bboard Again

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:46 am I have very many memories in this room, (especially) hearing of how my grandfather's grandfather lost his head (possibly literally).

That's close enough!

What it means is:
I have plenty of family heritage in this room; indeed my grandfather's grandfather was beheaded here.

Gloss:

nas

truly

masne

many

sa-la⟨m⟩maq

my-⟨DEON.PASS⟩remember

se-tlal

this-room

qā

know

tle-i-qā-tp-an

his-LOC-PRIV\PASS-head-REP.PST

tle-wāttlas

his-grandfather

sa-wāttlas.

my-grandfather

lammaq is a deontic passive 'what must be remembered', 'heritage', 'history'.
You guys missed the passive in tle-i-qā-tp-an (the active form would be tleiqatpan, with a short a). -an is reported or remote past: 'he was beheaded here'

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:31 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:46 am I have very many memories in this room, (especially) hearing of how my grandfather's grandfather lost his head (possibly literally).

That's close enough!

Does that mean I get to go next?

What it means is:
I have plenty of family heritage in this room; indeed my grandfather's grandfather was beheaded here.

Gloss:

nas

truly

masne

many

sa-la⟨m⟩maq

my-⟨DEON.PASS⟩remember

se-tlal

this-room

qā

know

tle-i-qā-tp-an

his-LOC-PRIV\PASS-head-REP.PST

tle-wāttlas

his-grandfather

sa-wāttlas.

my-grandfather

lammaq is a deontic passive 'what must be remembered', 'heritage', 'history'.
You guys missed the passive in tle-i-qā-tp-an (the active form would be tleiqatpan, with a short a). -an is reported or remote past: 'he was beheaded here'

How much a small difference in sound can change.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:13 am Does that mean I get to go next?

You go next!

The vocabulary for review from yesterday's exercise are on the board —

かふ (買ふ) | kō | [kʰò̞ᵝː] | (v.t.) "trade, exchange"
むさじい (兎) | musaji | [mʉ̀ᵝ.s̪ɐ̞́ˑ.ʑì] | (n.) "rabbit" (definite: むさじいけ (兎け) musajiki or むさじいは (兎は) musajiya)
ざひ (不ひ) | zai | z̪ɛi | strong negational suffix, "never", "does not ever"
ふるとうく (古期) | furutoku | [ɸʷʉ́ᵝ.ɾ̪ʉ̀ᵝ.t̪ʰó̞ᵝˑ.kʰʉ̀ᵝ] | (n.) "former times" (definite: ふるとうくゐ (古期ゐ) furutoki)
ておい゙ (強) | tyol | [t̪ʰʲó̞ᵝɫ] | (adj.) "strong, forceful"
ゐり (居り) | yuri | [jýᵝˑ.ɾ̪ʲì] | (v.) "to be somewhere, to be in a place"
ふくて (梟て) | fukute | [ɸʷʉ̀ᵝ.kʰʉ́ᵝˑ.t̪ʰè̞] | (n.) definite form of ふく (梟 | fuku | [ɸʷʉ́ᵝˑ.kʰʉ̀ᵝ] ) "owl"

Today's exercise is a poem. As usual, you may each consult the dictionary only once per head, and then only either the main entry or the grammar tables. Collaborate and produce a translation of the sense of the words. It does not need to preserve the rhyme.

むくつ くぽくて をたへ とぶえ、
Mukutsu kukkute wotae tobe,
[mʉ̀ᵝ.kʰʉ́ˑ.t̪͡s̪ʰʲỳᵝ kʰʉ́k.kʰʉ́ˑ.t̪ʰè̞ wò̞ᵝ.t̪ʰɐ̞́ˑ.è̞ t̪ʰó̞ᵝˑ.bè̞]

ぜひ むそう よたよるゐを いふれ、
Zei muso yotayori wo iyure,
[z̪ê̞ː mʉ́ˑ.s̪ò̞ᵝ jò.t̪ʰɐ̞́.jó̞ᵝˑ.ɾ̪ʲì wò̞ᵝ í.jýˑ.ɾ̪è̞]

おておでの すず より しほざけを すへ、
Otyode no suzu yori shōzakyo sue,
[ó̞ᵝ.t̪ʰʲó̞ᵝˑ.d̪è̞ n̪ò̞ᵝ s̪ʉ́ᵝˑ.z̪ʉ̀ᵝ jó̞ᵝ.ɾ̪ʲì ɕʰó̞ᵝː.z̪ɐ̞́ˑ.c͡çʰi̯ò̞̞ᵝ s̪ʉ́ᵝ.wè̞]

「くっく」とう をたへさく なつ こうれ...
Kukku to wotaesaku natsu kore...
[kʰʉ́k.kʰʉ̀ᵝ t̪ʰò̞ wò̞ᵝ.t̪ʰɐ̞́.è̞.s̪ɐ̞́ˑ.kʰ ʉ̀ᵝ n̪ɐ̞́ˑ t̪͡s̪ʰʲỳᵝ kʰó̞ᵝˑ.ɾ̪è̞]

(Out-of-Character Note: The whole poem is one grammatically normative sentence, without use of literary forms uncommon in the spoken language, or unusual dropping of particles, as some texts I produce will be.

Addendum: I'm also going to be at work most of today, so consulting the dictionary may take a moment.

Trying to figure out what a word is if you think you recognise a cognate is a free action, of course.)

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:12 am The vocabulary for review from yesterday's exercise are on the board … As usual, you may each consult the dictionary only once per head, and then only either the main entry or the grammar tables. Collaborate and produce a translation of the sense of the words. It does not need to preserve the rhyme.

I have no idea what you’re asking us to do here. What grammar tables? What dictionary? If you mean the dictionary in that very post, how would you stop us consulting it more than once per head?

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:35 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:12 am The vocabulary for review from yesterday's exercise are on the board … As usual, you may each consult the dictionary only once per head, and then only either the main entry or the grammar tables. Collaborate and produce a translation of the sense of the words. It does not need to preserve the rhyme.

I have no idea what you’re asking us to do here. What grammar tables? What dictionary? If you mean the dictionary in that very post, how would you stop us consulting it more than once per head?

Oh, no, tell me which word you want, and whether you want its dictionary entry or its inflectional paradigm, and you can have it, but you only get one or the other.

(Addendum: I'm broadly following the example of the first a posteriori one in not providing much, since there are natural languages with similar vocabulary and structure.)

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:16 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:35 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:12 am The vocabulary for review from yesterday's exercise are on the board … As usual, you may each consult the dictionary only once per head, and then only either the main entry or the grammar tables. Collaborate and produce a translation of the sense of the words. It does not need to preserve the rhyme.

I have no idea what you’re asking us to do here. What grammar tables? What dictionary? If you mean the dictionary in that very post, how would you stop us consulting it more than once per head?

Oh, no, tell me which word you want, and whether you want its dictionary entry or its inflectional paradigm, and you can have it, but you only get one or the other.

Why the complication? Why not just run it the same way we’ve been running it so far? (That is, give us just enough information to make it soluble, but no more.)

As for the problem itself… well, I wouldn’t even know where to start. Most of the words in that poem seem to bear absolutely no relationship to those you’ve given us, and with your rules I’m not comfortable asking for inflectional patterns when there’s a chance I might need a definition later.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:26 pm Why the complication? Why not just run it the same way we’ve been running it so far? (That is, give us just enough information to make it soluble, but no
more.)

The first a posteriori language in the thread gave us nothing but the text itself — not even a phonetic transcription — and it was a bit of a cognate-hunt. This is another one in that vein.

As for the problem itself… well, I wouldn’t even know where to start. Most of the words in that poem seem to bear absolutely no relationship to those you’ve given us,

It's a bit of an opaque hint, isn't it? I want to see if anybody else figures out what the significance of these seemingly-irrelevant words could be.

and with your rules I’m not comfortable asking for inflectional patterns when there’s a chance I might need a definition later.

You can always save asking for later and try to cognate-match, or wait for others to play and see what you get from there.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:15 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:26 pm Why the complication? Why not just run it the same way we’ve been running it so far? (That is, give us just enough information to make it soluble, but no
more.)

The first a posteriori language in the thread gave us nothing but the text itself — not even a phonetic transcription — and it was a bit of a cognate-hunt. This is another one in that vein.

Oh, I see. But more people here are familiar with Romance than Japonic. (Actually, is there anyone on this thread at all who knows Japanese?)

EDIT: Wait, did I just post an Escher sentence? I guess I did.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:43 pm Oh, I see. But more people here are familiar with Romance than Japonic. (Actually, is there anyone on this thread at all who knows Japanese?)

Mine was PIE-based, but no matter
And you're right, without anyone here who knows Japanese, we won't get far. I know maybe a dozen words, and I don't find them in this text

What I can guess:
kukkute (line 1) and kukku (line 4) seem to be inflectional forms of one word or words in a derivational relationship, and the same seems to be the case for wotae (line 1) and wotaesaku (line 4).
From the little bit I know about Japanese grammar, no could be some kind of relationship marker, and ko, wo could be grammatical particles.

@Rounin: What I propose is that you drop your rule - otherwise, if it's bradrn, Ares, and me participating, we'll get to a grand total of three words or three grammatical features deciphered. Just respond to our guesses and disclose some additional information on top each time, like we did in the previous rounds.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:43 pm EDIT: Wait, did I just post an Escher sentence? I guess I did.

I don't think so, it's a valid comparison (although I'd have written "with Japonic" for clarity.)

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 3:39 am kukkute (line 1) and kukku (line 4) seem to be inflectional forms of one word or words in a derivational relationship,

Pay close attention to the orthography here. Note that "Kukkute" is written with a different sequence of characters (くぽくて ku-po-ku-te) from "kukku" (くっく ku-(separator)-ku); also 「」are the equivalent of quotation marks.

You're on the right track with the words being etymologically related:

...and the same seems to be the case for wotae (line 1) and wotaesaku (line 4).

Yes, these are both forms of the same verb. Both are, incidentally, verb forms.

From the little bit I know about Japanese grammar, no could be some kind of relationship marker,

It is. The structure is [THING] no [POSSESSED THING/RELATED THING/ATTRIBUTE].

and ko, wo could be grammatical particles.

The element wo at the end of a word is probably one, but to which ko are you referring? The ko in kore is not a grammatical marker, it's just part of the word. It also isn't a demonstrative or pronoun.

@Rounin: What I propose is that you drop your rule - otherwise, if it's bradrn, Ares, and me participating, we'll get to a grand total of three words or three grammatical features deciphered. Just respond to our guesses and disclose some additional information on top each time, like we did in the previous rounds.

Oh, yes, I was a little sleepy when I typed my reply, so I don't suppose I made this clear — you each get one word (or inflection) revealed for free on top of the guesses.

I might make some guesses when I'm done with work but that won't be until later tonight.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:04 am Pay close attention to the orthography here. Note that "Kukkute" is written with a different sequence of characters (くぽくて ku-po-ku-te) from "kukku" (くっく ku-(separator)-ku); also 「」are the equivalent of quotation marks.

You're right, I totally ignored the original script here; my problem is that signs I haven't learnt don't stick in my memory, so I can only work with the transcription.

The element wo at the end of a word is probably one, but to which ko are you referring? The ko in kore is not a grammatical marker, it's just part of the word. It also isn't a demonstrative or pronoun.

Sorry, my bad. I meant to (line 4).

Anyway, I'm at the limit of what I can guess; the clues at the beginning of the original post don't help me at all. Maybe somebody else wants to try?

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:09 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:04 am Pay close attention to the orthography here. Note that "Kukkute" is written with a different sequence of characters (くぽくて ku-po-ku-te) from "kukku" (くっく ku-(separator)-ku); also 「」are the equivalent of quotation marks.

You're right, I totally ignored the original script here; my problem is that signs I haven't learnt don't stick in my memory, so I can only work with the transcription.

Fair.

The element wo at the end of a word is probably one, but to which ko are you referring? The ko in kore is not a grammatical marker, it's just part of the word. It also isn't a demonstrative or pronoun.

Sorry, my bad. I meant to (line 4).

It's both a comitative/instrumental, and a quotative, particle.

Anyway, I'm at the limit of what I can guess; the clues at the beginning of the original post don't help me at all. Maybe somebody else wants to try?

I'll see if Linguisticat has a good guess. If not, I'll provide more hints.

I got home later than I expected. I'm going to copy the example words and poem below so it's easier to find again later. I do have a few questions already.

In the first line, does むくつ act similar to Japanese むかし(むかし) to introduce a story or setting far in the past?
In the second line, does いふれ derive from OJ いふ "to say"? If not, is it a verb form at all, or another word from?
In the third line, I'm assuming すず has the meaning of "bell", and that おておで is a definite noun of some sort. Are these assumptions correct? And if おておで isn't a noun, is it an onomatopoeia describing a bell or chime?

かふ (買ふ) | kō | [kʰò̞ᵝː] | (v.t.) "trade, exchange"
むさじい (兎) | musaji | [mʉ̀ᵝ.s̪ɐ̞́ˑ.ʑì] | (n.) "rabbit" (definite: むさじいけ (兎け) musajiki or むさじいは (兎は) musajiya)
ざひ (不ひ) | zai | z̪ɛi | strong negational suffix, "never", "does not ever"
ふるとうく (古期) | furutoku | [ɸʷʉ́ᵝ.ɾ̪ʉ̀ᵝ.t̪ʰó̞ᵝˑ.kʰʉ̀ᵝ] | (n.) "former times" (definite: ふるとうくゐ (古期ゐ) furutoki)
ておい゙ (強) | tyol | [t̪ʰʲó̞ᵝɫ] | (adj.) "strong, forceful"
ゐり (居り) | yuri | [jýᵝˑ.ɾ̪ʲì] | (v.) "to be somewhere, to be in a place"
ふくて (梟て) | fukute | [ɸʷʉ̀ᵝ.kʰʉ́ᵝˑ.t̪ʰè̞] | (n.) definite form of ふく (梟 | fuku | [ɸʷʉ́ᵝˑ.kʰʉ̀ᵝ] ) "owl"

Today's exercise is a poem. As usual, you may each consult the dictionary only once per head, and then only either the main entry or the grammar tables. Collaborate and produce a translation of the sense of the words. It does not need to preserve the rhyme.

むくつ くぽくて をたへ とぶえ、
Mukutsu kukkute wotae tobe,
[mʉ̀ᵝ.kʰʉ́ˑ.t̪͡s̪ʰʲỳᵝ kʰʉ́k.kʰʉ́ˑ.t̪ʰè̞ wò̞ᵝ.t̪ʰɐ̞́ˑ.è̞ t̪ʰó̞ᵝˑ.bè̞]

ぜひ むそう よたよるゐを いふれ、
Zei muso yotayori wo iyure,
[z̪ê̞ː mʉ́ˑ.s̪ò̞ᵝ jò.t̪ʰɐ̞́.jó̞ᵝˑ.ɾ̪ʲì wò̞ᵝ í.jýˑ.ɾ̪è̞]

おておでの すず より しほざけを すへ、
Otyode no suzu yori shōzakyo sue,
[ó̞ᵝ.t̪ʰʲó̞ᵝˑ.d̪è̞ n̪ò̞ᵝ s̪ʉ́ᵝˑ.z̪ʉ̀ᵝ jó̞ᵝ.ɾ̪ʲì ɕʰó̞ᵝː.z̪ɐ̞́ˑ.c͡çʰi̯ò̞̞ᵝ s̪ʉ́ᵝ.wè̞]

「くっく」とう をたへさく なつ こうれ...
Kukku to wotaesaku natsu kore...
[kʰʉ́k.kʰʉ̀ᵝ t̪ʰò̞ wò̞ᵝ.t̪ʰɐ̞́.è̞.s̪ɐ̞́ˑ.kʰ ʉ̀ᵝ n̪ɐ̞́ˑ t̪͡s̪ʰʲỳᵝ kʰó̞ᵝˑ.ɾ̪è̞]

linguistcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:26 pm I got home later than I expected. I'm going to copy the example words and poem below so it's easier to find again later. I do have a few questions already.

In the first line, does むくつ act similar to Japanese むかし(むかし) to introduce a story or setting far in the past?

No, not at all. The word you would use for that is probably 往処 inishi or 昔 yushuku.

In the second line, does いふれ derive from OJ いふ "to say"?

Edit: Derive from? No. Is cognate to, yes.

It also has roughly the same meaning ("speak, say, tell"). It would normally be spelled 語れ.

If not, is it a verb form at all, or another word from?

It is a conjugated form.

In the third line, I'm assuming すず has the meaning of "bell",

It can have that meaning, but also has several others.

and that おておで is a definite noun of some sort.

It is a noun, but it isn't a definite one.

Are these assumptions correct? And if おておで isn't a noun, is it an onomatopoeia describing a bell or chime?

The onomatopoeia for a bell chiming is usually ぎんぎん (jinjin) or がんがん (gangan); the second word can also mean "bell", appearing in the compound 鐘花 ganganzaki, "bellflower, campanula".

Well, this seems to be getting nowhere. If no-one else wants to guess, I’ll post another of my languages. (Or Rounin Ryuuji could post another of theirs? I recall a Romance conlang.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:32 am Well, this seems to be getting nowhere. If no-one else wants to guess, I’ll post another of my languages. (Or Rounin Ryuuji could post another of theirs? I recall a Romance conlang.)

Or Rounin could post more vocabulary, so that we at least have a basis for guessing the meaning of the text

Oh, I had thought Linguisticat was going to make another guess, but I guess not. I'll fill in more once I get back in for the evening.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:40 am Oh, I had thought Linguisticat was going to make another guess, but I guess not. I'll fill in more once I get back in for the evening.

I've been busy with work, so I haven't had any chances to sit down and think. It's probably best to move on unfortunately. I liked seeing a Japonic language here.