Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:59 pm
Without checking: [məˈwoːkiː]
Ding ding ding! Yes, in the local dialect, Milwaukee is pronounced with a schwa and no /l/ in the initial syllable.
As would I when speaking particularly fast or when destressing Milwaukee, as in your example. For instance, when speaking of the Milwaukee Brewers I'd likely reduce it down to two syllables.
I wonder if it's some kind of official policy of the club itself. In Spanish it is also called "el Bayern (de) Múnich".Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:58 pmBy the way, this reminds of how, whenever German soccer league team Bayern München gets mentioned in an English-language context, they're called "Bayern Munich". Shouldn't people either leave both parts of the name in the original German, or translate both parts of the name into English?
Kind of a tricky question, since "Mönchen" was only added relatively recently in order to distinguish it from nearby Bergisch Gladbach; the traditional Limburgish name is just "Jlabbach". I believe Limburgish generally distinguishes the Ich-Laut (as opposed to adjoining dialects of Ripuarisch, which merge it with /ʃ/) but I'm not exactly sure where the isogloss runs.anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:40 amWhat's the actual local (as opposed to Standard) German pronunciation? In particular, what happens to the /ç/?
Perhaps German speakers should start calling the principality "München" as well, to make the confusion even better?anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:40 am Monaco as Italian for München is a good way of confusing travellers (or even perhaps football followers) of course.
"München am Meer".Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:18 amPerhaps German speakers should start calling the principality "München" as well, to make the confusion even better?anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:40 amMonaco as Italian for München is a good way of confusing travellers (or even perhaps football followers) of course.
Being born there, I can confirm that the locals generally refer to the city only als Gladbach when speaking Standard German and Jlabbach when speaking dialect (which is mostly dead, sadly). Mönchengladbach is an official designation and is therefore normally pronounced in accordance with Standard German rules. The football club is referred to as Gladbach as well, or als die Borussia (other clubs with that name don't count, especially not those other guys).Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:14 am Kind of a tricky question, since "Mönchen" was only added relatively recently in order to distinguish it from nearby Bergisch Gladbach; the traditional Limburgish name is just "Jlabbach". I believe Limburgish generally distinguishes the Ich-Laut (as opposed to adjoining dialects of Ripuarisch, which merge it with /ʃ/) but I'm not exactly sure where the isogloss runs.
Russian question - is southern Russian a primary intermediate variety between the varieties that gave rise to Standard Russian and Ukrainian, cf. Central German varieties intermediate between Low German varieties and Upper German varieties, or is it otherwise Standard Russian laid over a Ukrainian substratum, cf. northern Standard German with some degree of a Low German substratum?hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:17 pm @Moose: Concerning your original question, when we talk about the pronunciation by local Russians, there is the added twist that many (probably even a majority) of them are speakers of Southern Russian regiolect, where г is pronounced /h/ like in Ukrainian and Belorussian.
What does Jlabbach sound like? My instinct is something like ['jla.bax] or ['ʎa.bax].
The current Southern regiolect is rather Standard Russian laid over speakers of Southern Russian dialects; NB that traditional Russian dialects are mostly dead nowadays, but some of their features remain in the regiolect. The [g] / [h] isogloss runs through the dialects of Russian proper (Belarussian and Ukrainian fall on the [h] side, while Russian proper has dialects which have [h) and which have [g]. To my knowledge, [h] for Standard [g] is the most significant and stable feature that the Southern regiolect inherited from the dialects.Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:37 pm Russian question - is southern Russian a primary intermediate variety between the varieties that gave rise to Standard Russian and Ukrainian, cf. Central German varieties intermediate between Low German varieties and Upper German varieties, or is it otherwise Standard Russian laid over a Ukrainian substratum, cf. northern Standard German with some degree of a Low German substratum?
['jla.bax]Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:47 pm What does Jlabbach sound like? My instinct is something like ['jla.bax] or ['ʎa.bax].
Wikipedia gives [jəˈlɑbɑx] (with no source); I wonder if that's just an attempt by someone who finds initial [jl] unpronounceable?hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:06 pm['jla.bax]Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:47 pm What does Jlabbach sound like? My instinct is something like ['jla.bax] or ['ʎa.bax].
I assume so. ['jla.bax] is what I've heard myself.anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:05 amWikipedia gives [jəˈlɑbɑx] (with no source); I wonder if that's just an attempt by someone who finds initial [jl] unpronounceable?
I have no idea. I was born in MG, but we moved away when I was a toddler and only visited my maternal granparents, who lived there, during vacations. I also lived there from 1985 - 1993. My grandparents weren't locals themselves, but refugees who moved there after WW II, and so were most of their neighbours. Locals I knew back then already complained that only a handful of old and middle-aged people still spoke the dialect. So, while I was interested in the dialect, I only ever heard occasional dialect words or short phrases mixed into Standard German discourse by local speakers, not anything of a length that would have made it possible to note tonality. The dialect texts I read (the usual dialect poems and short stories local papers sometimes publish for readers interested in local traditions) didn't indicate any tones, but that doesn't have to mean anything; those weren't texts published by professional linguists.
I'll but in and try to answer your question: according to this map, tone would be expected in the traditional dialect. However, the map cannot be entirely reliable given it places Luxembourgish in the tonal region, despite the fact that it has lost its former tone contrast.
