Zompist Bboard Again

Darren wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 1:48 am While it's a bizarre analysis, it's the biggest discrepancy between consonant phones and phonemes I've ever seen – on average more than 6 distinct realisations of each phoneme. And yes, obviously it's complete bunk.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 4:11 am

Darren wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 1:48 am While it's a bizarre analysis, it's the biggest discrepancy between consonant phones and phonemes I've ever seen – on average more than 6 distinct realisations of each phoneme. And yes, obviously it's complete bunk.

Moloko (Chadic) has a single vowel phoneme with 5 realisations, plus another 5 realisations of an epenthetic vowel, thanks to word-level ‘prosodic’ features. Quite a lot of the Chadic languages are similar. So I wouldn’t be so confident as to call this one ‘obviously complete bunk’.

(That being said, the details of this analysis do look a great deal more strained than the Chadic ones. I don’t see the point of positing prosodies if they only ever apply to one CV syllable at a time!)

Darren wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 7:23 am How's this for obscure? A five-consonant inventory used in a (partly incorrect) transliteration of Persepolitan late Elamite texts by Edward Hincks in 1846:

Code: Select all

 p   t   k
     s
     n

Modern analysis suggests more like eleven consonants – still fairly small. I like Hincks's thinking though (he added the vowels /i u ə˞ a/ which is delicious).

Darren wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 7:23 am How's this for obscure? A five-consonant inventory used in a (partly incorrect) transliteration of Persepolitan late Elamite texts by Edward Hincks in 1846:

Code: Select all

 p   t   k
     s
     n

Modern analysis suggests more like eleven consonants – still fairly small. I like Hincks's thinking though (he added the vowels /i u ə˞ a/ which is delicious).

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 4:21 pm nah where is your *m

 p   t       ʔ
 m   n
 w   r   j
 
 
 i iː        u uː
 e eː        o oː
       a aː

Epare pea ewe opo'o owena watepa amo yamapu piniwiri patayaro uuru namae apaoe

 b   t       k
 m   n       ŋ
 w   l   j

 p   t   k
     s
 m   n   ŋ
     r
 w   l   j

 p     k
 m  n
 v  l
    r

"t" is found in words having totemic significance but is never used in every-day conversation.

[...]

"l" and "r" seem to be interchangeable; "v" and "m" seem to be used erratically.

[...]

I duly recognize the possibility to confuse letter sounds; I have been, at times, painfully aware of the inability of the native to discern letter-sound values; at all times I have avoided getting information from the native when he is under the influence of betel-chewing, hence I regard the foregoing note on the consonants, their sounds and the peculiarities of usage in this language as being, in the main, correct.

 p     k
 m  n
    l

 p     k  ʔ
 m  n
    l

 p  (t)  k  (ʔ)
 m   n
(β)  l      (h)
    (r)

It has already been remarked that the Namau people duplicate a vowel wherever they can, but often when using the genitive the sense of euphony seems to embarrass them and there is an apparent effort to follow their usual custom of duplicating the final vowel of the word, whereas it will not always yield to it.

The ablative gives me some concern as it is difficult to be sure if I have really found it, or whether I am compromising a postposition to meet the need.

Gender is unknown in this language; an object is either a man or a woman. Trees, birds, fishes, everything is thus spoken of and the native seems to be very accurate in determining the sex of a tree. All trees are male or female, and he is shrewd enough to speak of the best trees as males.

I reluctantly forego the pleasure of giving more illustrations to avoid making these notes too long, but I hope to return to the subject of this paper and shall then note in detail the suggestiveness of the expletives used in this language; I am inclined to think that in them the student will find a strong clue to the genius of the language.

[Talking of number-marking on nouns:] It must not be thought that the native is very particular in this matter, he seems very indifferent to numbers.

There are two terms, au, ua, undoubtedly expressing "it," but I am unable to place them because they seem to be used erratically; to be used when not expected, omitted when they seem most necessary.

The natives of Namau seem to have well-defined ideas on the propriety of using the imperative mood. A boy speaking to his chief, or any native speaking to God in the form of prayer, always studiously avoids using the imperative mood, whereas in speaking to another boy he invariably uses it. When a native, for reasons he will not state, wishes to avoid the use of this mood he falls back on the infinitive mood.

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:17 am It also has one of the highest sonorant-to-obstruent ratios I know of (62.5%).

 p  t     k
 m  n     ŋ
    r  ɻ
 w  l  j

Darren wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 12:27 am ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 1a. All spoken languages have phonemes
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 1b. There are never fewer phones than phonemes in a phonological system
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 2a. All spoken languages have multiple consonant phonemes
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 2b. All consonant inventories have multiple degrees of sonority including multiple obstruents
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 2c. There are always multiple consonant phonemes which are more sonorous than the least sonorous series of phonemes
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 2d. There are always multiple contrastive places of articulation in a consonant inventory
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 2e. Consonant phonemes will always occur at at least two out of labial, coronal and velar POAs.
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 3a. All languages have at least one vowel phoneme.
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 3b. All languages have multiple vowel phonemes unless consonants or words have markedness for F2.
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 3c. All languages have at least one [+front] vowel, or a [+front] consonant such as /j/.
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 3d. No language distinguishes frontness (F2) without also distinguishing height (F1).
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 3e. No language has fewer than three vowel phonemes which does not also have more than ten consonant phonemes.

1. Words are assigned one vowel |V| per tone.
2. Tone influences F1 heavily; the highest pitch of a tone determines what |V| is – 1 2 3 4 5 → [a a ə ə ɨ]
3. Stress is placed on the first tone with the highest peak (the first tone with a 5 pitch gets stress, otherwise first with a 4, and so on). Syllables two away from the tonic get secondary stress.
4. Vowels dissimilate in frontness, with the tonic fronting and the adjacent backing, [a ə ɨ] → [æ,ɒ e,o i,u]. A vowel which is not next to the tonic remains central. If there is only one syllable it remains central.
5. Hiatus is repaired with |C|, which is realised as [tɕ] adjacent to [i], [t] following a central vowel, [k] following a front vowel and [ɸ] following a back vowel
6. Before stressed or secondarily stressed word-initial [i e,æ ɨ,ə,a] is inserted [tɕ k t]
7. Intervocalically, [ɸ t tɕ k] lenide to [h θ s ʃ] except before a primarily stressed vowel
8. In +ATR words, consonants voice [ɸ t tɕ k θ s ʃ h] → [b d ɟ ʔ l ɾ j β], vowels split [i ɨ u e ə o æ a ɒ] → [i,ɪ ɨ,ɨ̙ u,ʊ e,ɛ ə,ɐ o,ɔ ɛ,æ ɐ,a ɔ,ɒ].
9. In nasal words, vowels nasalise and [ɸ t tɕ k b d ɟ ʔ l ɾ j β] become [mp nt ɲc ŋk mb nd ɲɟ ŋg n ɲ ŋ m]

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2024 7:17 pm (It reminds me of an idea I once posted in the Conlang Random Thread, for a language where consonants and vowels weren’t separate. But this is more cursed than that. Sadly, I can’t seem to find the post again.)

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:55 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2024 7:17 pm (It reminds me of an idea I once posted in the Conlang Random Thread, for a language where consonants and vowels weren’t separate. But this is more cursed than that. Sadly, I can’t seem to find the post again.)

Do you mean this post: viewtopic.php?p=32999#p32999?

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 3:30 am I remembered it involved consonant/vowel alternations, amd was pretty sure it involved the word altern(wasn't sure about the ending), so I searched "altern*" in the conlang random thread, then got bored, so I searched for "altern*" in Conlangery with the author being bradrn*, only looked at the topic names until I found something in the Conlang random thread, and I think it was the 4th or 5th one of those

* How do you pronounce Bradrn, by the way? In my head it is /b̥ɹad̥ɜːn/, or possibly /b̥ɹad̥ɹən/

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 3:39 am Wait, phpBB supports wildcards in searching…‽ Wow, that’s convenient.

(Also, I hadn’t realised you’d been around here back then.)

* How do you pronounce Bradrn, by the way? In my head it is /b̥ɹad̥ɜːn/, or possibly /b̥ɹad̥ɹən/

It’s just my initials, so I say it as ‘brad-r-n’. Though feel free to say it however you want.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 3:53 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 3:39 am Wait, phpBB supports wildcards in searching…‽ Wow, that’s convenient.

It does. There are a few other things you can donin searching, but I have to look at the advanced search every time

      1      2     3       4       5      6

/tɐ/  ta˩    ta˨   ta˩˨˩   ta˨˩
      ntã˩   ntã˨  ntã˩˨˩  ntã˨˩

/dɐ/  dɐ˩    dɐ˨   dɐ˩˨˩   dɐ˨˩
      ndɐ̃˩   ndɐ̃˨  ndɐ̃˩˨˩  ndɐ̃˨˩

/tə/  tɐ˧    tɐ˦   tɐ˨˧˩   tɐ˨˩˧   tɐ˧˦   tɐ˩˦    
      ntɐ̃˧   ntɐ̃˦  ntɐ̃˨˧˩  ntɐ̃˨˩˧  ntɐ̃˧˦  ntɐ̃˩˦   

/də/  də˧    də˦   də˨˧˩   də˨˩˧   də˧˦   də˩˦    
      ndə̃˧   ndə̃˦  ndə̃˨˧˩  ndə̃˨˩˧  ndə̃˧˦  ndə̃˩˦   

/tɨ/  tɨ̙˥    tɨ̙˥˧  tɨ̙˧˥˨   tɨ̙˥˩    tɨ̙˦˥˦  tɨ̙˧˨˥
      ntɨ̙̃˥   ntɨ̙̃˥˧ ntɨ̙̃˧˥˨  ntɨ̙̃˥˩   ntɨ̙̃˦˥˦ ntɨ̙̃˧˨˥

/dɨ/  dɨ˥    dɨ˥˧  dɨ˧˥˨   dɨ˥˩    dɨ˦˥˦  dɨ˧˨˥
      ndɨ̃˥   ndɨ̃˥˧ ndɨ̃˧˥˨  ndɨ̃˥˩   ndɨ̃˦˥˦ ndɨ̃˧˨˥


1: Low  2: Mid  3: rise-fall  4: fall  5: High rise  6: Low rise

• /c ɟ/ front neighbouring /ɨ/ to [i], but only the first if they're intervocalic (/ɨcɨp/ → [icu] etc.)
• /k g/ front preceding /ɨ ə ɐ/ to [i e ɛ]
• /p b/ back preceding /ɨ ə ɐ/ to [u o ɔ]