Zompist Bboard Again

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:23 am I’d be curious to know how often people there use the numbers vs the names. (Here we use numbers for roads which only have numbers, but names for everything else.)

My guess would be that roads with both names and numbers are called by their names by people who live on or near them, and by their numbers by everyone else, but I'm not a all sure about that.

(That is, if you're from somewhere else and you're taking the B 33 to your eventual destination, and along the road, you drive through the town of Hinterwaldingen, you probably don't even know what name the stretch of the B33 in Hinterwaldingen has. But the locals probably do, and might well use that name instead of "B 33".)

We also have the E-roads Ketsuban mentioned, but E-road designations are generally ignored by most people.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:45 am (That is, if you're from somewhere else and you're taking the B 33 to your eventual destination, and along the road, you drive through the town of Hinterwaldingen, you probably don't even know what name the stretch of the B33 in Hinterwaldingen has. But the locals probably do, and might well use that name instead of "B 33".)

Oh… this situation is quite a bit different from what I was thinking about. We do get such things here, but I’m not sure how people refer to them.

in France we use numbers,
national roads don't have names,
freeways do, but they're not used...

Here in Wisconsin, city streets have names, while state and US highways have numbers, interstates have I- followed by numbers, and county highways have letters ─ with one notable exception ─ everyone refers to Highway 100, which is definitely a city street, in Milwaukee County as Highway 100 and only uncommonly by its other names such as 108th Street or Mayfair Road, while practically no other numbered or lettered highways are referred to by such in Milwaukee County.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:14 pm Here in Wisconsin, city streets have names, while state and US highways have numbers, interstates have I- followed by numbers, and county highways have letters ─ with one notable exception ─ everyone refers to Highway 100, which is definitely a city street, in Milwaukee County as Highway 100 and only uncommonly by its other names such as 108th Street or Mayfair Road, while practically no other numbered or lettered highways are referred to by such in Milwaukee County.

Unless things have changed (milennials ruining everything), people refer to the interstates in Chicago by name:

290 - Eisenhower
90/94 - N, Kennedy; S, Dan Ryan
294 - Tri-State

Numbered routes may or may not be referred to by names... e.g. it'd be odd to call North Avenue "route 64". It probably helps that the major streets keep their name across the whole region. E.g. Ogden Ave. keeps its name from the city 30 miles out.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2024 10:04 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:14 pm Here in Wisconsin, city streets have names, while state and US highways have numbers, interstates have I- followed by numbers, and county highways have letters ─ with one notable exception ─ everyone refers to Highway 100, which is definitely a city street, in Milwaukee County as Highway 100 and only uncommonly by its other names such as 108th Street or Mayfair Road, while practically no other numbered or lettered highways are referred to by such in Milwaukee County.

Unless things have changed (milennials ruining everything), people refer to the interstates in Chicago by name:

290 - Eisenhower
90/94 - N, Kennedy; S, Dan Ryan
294 - Tri-State

Numbered routes may or may not be referred to by names... e.g. it'd be odd to call North Avenue "route 64". It probably helps that the major streets keep their name across the whole region. E.g. Ogden Ave. keeps its name from the city 30 miles out.

On the other hand, interstates never have such names in Wisconsin. The only variation is whether one pronounces the I-, and when multiple interstate routes overlap, which one one uses.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 2:50 am I live in a (small) city where the streets are named logically, by which I mean they follow the following two principles:
(1) Streets *always* run north-south, and avenues *always* run west-east.
(2) Most streets and avenues are named with numbers (3rd street) (as opposed to, uh, names (elm street)), which indicate how many blocks away they are from Oak Street and Main Avenue respectively. This makes navigating to an address easy, because one can tell from the street numbers roughly how many blocks away they are.

Huh, I've never heard of this. I've always wondered how people can remember addresses when they just consist of numbers.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 2:50 amIf you live in a city that hasn't embraced the logic, I have the following questions:
(1) Do "street" and "avenue" signify something else that I'm not aware of? (Maybe the width of the road?)

There are very few avenues (aveny) in Sweden. I only know of the one in Gothenburg. I would say an avenue is the most important street of a city, goes through the center of the city, and maybe has several lanes and/or is lined by trees. Many streets (gata) here have names that include the word for road (väg) even though they are city streets.

We don't have grids here, so all streets have proper names. Some streets or roads have a name relating to something that was located there in the past. The old town in Stockholm is interesting, because there they have streets named after occupations that used to be found on those streets, for example Shoemaker Street, Taylor Alley or Axe Smith's Alley. It's common for specific are areas to have street names with a specific theme. For example, I used to live on Cinnamon Alley, and some nearby streets were Coriander Alley and Garlic Alley.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 2:50 am(2) How do you navigate when every street has a name name instead of a number name?

Nowadays I use Google Maps. I have foldable maps of three cities I've lived in, from before I had a smartphone.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 2:50 am(3) How many of the streets with name names (elm, johnson, etc) do you actually know (name and location relative to each other) off the top of your head?

A handful.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 2:50 am(4) Am I overestimating how useful logical road names are in the modern internet era?

I don't know; you don't miss things you've never had in the first place.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 2:50 am (1) Do "street" and "avenue" signify something else that I'm not aware of? (Maybe the width of the road?)

Yes, avenues are typically bigger than streets. In downtown DC, streets follow a grid system except when they don't and avenues are at angles to it and lead to the White House except for the ones that don't.

(2) How do you navigate when every street has a name name instead of a number name?

By living there, using landmarks, etc. Street names can be useful for giving directions to people who don't know the area but landmarks are more useful for people who do. Main roads are known by either street name or number - for example, Maryland has Rockville Pike, which I'm sure has a number but I don't know it, and Route 1, which I'm sure has at least one name but I don't know it. Virginia has Braddock Road (would be a major thoroughfare except it's parallel to several others) and Route 29.

Apparently Route 1 is called Baltimore Ave at some points and Washington Blvd at others, which is a common naming convention for roads that connect two cities, for a surprisingly loose definition of city - between Wise, VA (pop. ~3200) and the city of Norton (pop. ~3600, the smallest city in Virginia, apparently named after the head of a now-defunct railroad company in a failed bid to convince them to build a depot there which sounds about right for Virginia, miserable state tbh) there's Wise-Norton Road.

Phones try their best to use numbers for the roads everyone uses names for and vice versa.

(3) How many of the streets with name names (elm, johnson, etc) do you actually know (name and location relative to each other) off the top of your head?

Most that I've ever taken regularly by car.

(4) Am I overestimating how useful logical road names are in the modern internet era? After all, I can't remember the last time I drove to a new place where I didn't look it up on Google Maps first. (Furthermore, people who drive with a GPS in their car have even less need to have logical street names, because the GPS handles all the navigation for them.)

I've never been to a city where the "logical" road names were logical enough to matter. New York doesn't count unless you're in Manhattan north of 14th and ignoring Broadway.

(5) If you're old enough to have driven in the pre-internet era, was it more cumbersome in the past?

If you didn't know the way, you had to use paper maps.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:08 pm Phones try their best to use numbers for the roads everyone uses names for and vice versa.

…‘phones’? How are street names/numbers relevant to phones?

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:16 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:08 pm Phones try their best to use numbers for the roads everyone uses names for and vice versa.

…‘phones’? How are street names/numbers relevant to phones?

Navigation systems.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:16 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:08 pm Phones try their best to use numbers for the roads everyone uses names for and vice versa.

…‘phones’? How are street names/numbers relevant to phones?

If they're smartphones, they probably have navigation apps installed.

(Fucking sleeplessness, I really shouldn't post at such an unholy time of the night...)

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:21 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:16 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:08 pm Phones try their best to use numbers for the roads everyone uses names for and vice versa.

…‘phones’? How are street names/numbers relevant to phones?

Navigation systems.

Oh, those phones, right. Not sure what I was thinking.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:24 am (2) How do you navigate when every street has a name name instead of a number name?
-- You memorize the main streets. I know pretty much all the half-mile streets in Chicago, and many of the downtown streets. Then someone can tell you that they are, say, two blocks south of Armitage.

As a longtime Chicago resident, can confirm. Most people will know the half-mile streets (the Chicago street grid is eight blocks to the mile) in neighbourhoods they inhabit or frequent and will give these as "crossstreets" when giving directions, often unprompted. (Though you may be explicitly asked, "What are your crossstreets?")

For instance, when I first meet someone local, the conversation typically goes somewhat like this:
"Are you local?"
"Yeah, I am."
"Whereabouts?"
"Rogers Park."
"Where in Rogers Park."
"Clark and Devon."

Pretty much everyone in the area knows these streets. Clark in particular is a major artery which runs through several popular neighbourhoods. That corner is a destination on account of an especially well-stocked and well-run hardware store (called "Clark-Devon Hardware") and several local bars, including two longstanding gay bars.

If they evince a greater familiarity with the area (e.g. "Oh, I used to live at Greenview and Albion!") then I will give my actual corner, which is a couple blocks north and east from Clark and Devon. But the approximation is enough for most folks. The same procedure is typical when giving the location of businesses as well.

zompist wrote:Unless things have changed (milennials ruining everything), people refer to the interstates in Chicago by name:

290 - Eisenhower
90/94 - N, Kennedy; S, Dan Ryan
294 - Tri-State

This was a big transition for me; back in St Louis, all the highways are referred to by number (and not even the current number, as in the notorious example of "Highway Farty"). I'm not even sure any of them are named[*], with the exception of the two beltways (which can be referred to as the "Outer Belt" and "Inner Belt", although this is rare).

[*] Glancing at Wikipedia, I see that the portion of Hwy 40/I-64 running through St Louis City has been renamed for legendary sportscaster Jack Buck. I can confidently say I've never heard anyone use this name in conversation.

In the UK I would expect an "avenue" to be lined with trees and/or to be used on a housing estate to give the impression of some idyllic setting.

Smaller roads in town are often called "street" whereas "road" might also include big roads that go to other places. But it's not terribly exact. Then you have the other options like "lane", "place" etc.

Curlyjimsam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:47 pm Smaller roads in town are often called "street" whereas "road" might also include big roads that go to other places. But it's not terribly exact. Then you have the other options like "lane", "place" etc.

The technical name for these is "thoroughfare descriptors". You can find a list of them here. A fun pastime is to find one of each using GoogleMaps or OpenStreetMap, or something similar, without using the search. Another fun pastime is to find one of each, but used as the main name, for example "Avenue Road".

If you ask me, it's time someone created a street plan with some truly irrational names like "Pi Street" and "Root of Two Avenue", not to mention "E Drive" which branches off from itself.

malloc wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:14 pm If you ask me, it's time someone created a street plan with some truly irrational names like "Pi Street" and "Root of Two Avenue", not to mention "E Drive" which branches off from itself.

Now I wonder if, over on Almea, the Flaids have done that.

alice wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:02 pm

Curlyjimsam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:47 pm Smaller roads in town are often called "street" whereas "road" might also include big roads that go to other places. But it's not terribly exact. Then you have the other options like "lane", "place" etc.

The technical name for these is "thoroughfare descriptors". You can find a list of them here. A fun pastime is to find one of each using GoogleMaps or OpenStreetMap, or something similar, without using the search. Another fun pastime is to find one of each, but used as the main name, for example "Avenue Road".

In the Greater Detroit Metropolitan Area, I have run across pairs or larger groups of thoroughfares, among which these descriptors are the only differences —— and it’s a crucial difference.
….
Grand River Highway
Grand River Military Road
Grand River Avenue
….
Purlingbrook (w/o descriptor)
Purlingbrook Street
Purlingbrook Drive
Purlingbrook Lane
and, though part of my mind doesn’t want to call them thoroughfares,
Purlingbrook Place
Purlingbrook Court
Purlingbrook Circle

A "lane" or a "place" or a "court" doesn't sound like a "thoroughfare" to me.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:46 pm A "lane" or a "place" or a "court" doesn't sound like a "thoroughfare" to me.

I mistyped something.
To me a “lane” is possibly the smallest kind or least “thorough” kind of thoroughfare.
But a “drive” is a thoroughfare. The second time I mentioned “drive”, I meant “circle”.
“Circles” don’t strike me as thoroughfares.