Zompist Bboard Again

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:50 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:20 pm Why has no one considered the very human meanings of fairy?

Quite. This whole thing has made me wonder if the 'very human meanings of fairy' might be less prevalent in the USA / elsewhere than they are here in the UK...

"Very human meanings of fairy" aren't very prevalent here from my experience. I can't remember the last time I heard someone IRL called a "fairy", even though when I was in school "gay" was used as a general all-purpose insult referring to just about anything to the point that it was bleached of much of its homosexuality.

I only get english through the internet, but yeah, I think it's more of a 1960ies thing

Torco wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:33 pm I only get english through the internet, but yeah, I think it's more of a 1960ies thing

I encountered it on the US police procedural "Blue Bloods", from the 2010s, used by late-middle-aged policemen, so that would fit with the "not current slang" status.
I'm with the people for whom being magic is part of the definition of a fairy. Things get complicated by "fairy" translating two German concepts, (1) Feen - women (or beings that look like a human woman) with supernatural gifts (the fairy godmothers in "Sleeping Beauty" are Feen in the German version) and (2) Elfen - the tiny humanoids with wings. Like others, seeing (2) would make me doubt my world view and assume I took the wrong pills; seeing (1) would surprise me less except if the Fee would immediately start doing magical stuff, because I'd take her for a normal woman first.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Mar 18, 2025 5:01 am

Torco wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:33 pm I only get english through the internet, but yeah, I think it's more of a 1960ies thing

I encountered it on the US police procedural "Blue Bloods", from the 2010s, used by late-middle-aged policemen, so that would fit with the "not current slang" status.
I'm with the people for whom being magic is part of the definition of a fairy. Things get complicated by "fairy" translating two German concepts, (1) Feen - women (or beings that look like a human woman) with supernatural gifts (the fairy godmothers in "Sleeping Beauty" are Feen in the German version) and (2) Elfen - the tiny humanoids with wings. Like others, seeing (2) would make me doubt my world view and assume I took the wrong pills; seeing (1) would surprise me less except if the Fee would immediately start doing magical stuff, because I'd take her for a normal woman first.

I think English has these two concepts as well, but less settled terminology around them. I believe the most direct cognate of (1) would be fae/fay, variant faery/faerie, which is mostly encountered in bad fantasy books with meaning (1) — I don’t believe it can mean (2) though counterexamples wouldn’t surprise me too much. The most direct cognate of (2) would be elf, but it mostly means (1) in fantasy (thanks Tolkien), although it can also refer to a different variety of tiny humanoid corresponding to neither of those. Fairy (as opposed to faery) most typically means (2), though I guess it’s possible to find places where it means (1).

I agree with bradrn, but I'd like to more explicitly note that the cognates are swapped for me: the prototypical elf is (1)¹ but the prototypical fairy is (2). Faerie is a word bad modern² fantasy novels use for (1), especially when the author wants to emphasise their danger to humans³

¹ Although not necessarily or prototypically a woman
² I want to say from around 2010, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was attested in that context much earlier, and it may just be that nobody ever reads yesterday's bad fantasy
³ My own impression. I am perfectly willing for someone with a better knowledge of bad fantasy to correct me on this

Lērisama wrote: ↑Tue Mar 18, 2025 11:07 am I agree with bradrn, but I'd like to more explicitly note that the cognates are swapped for me: the prototypical elf is (1)¹ but the prototypical fairy is (2). Faerie is a word bad modern² fantasy novels use for (1), especially when the author wants to emphasise their danger to humans³

¹ Although not necessarily or prototypically a woman
² I want to say from around 2010, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was attested in that context much earlier, and it may just be that nobody ever reads yesterday's bad fantasy
³ My own impression. I am perfectly willing for someone with a better knowledge of bad fantasy to correct me on this

I agree here -- to me (1) is an elf except that elves need not be female, while (2) is a fairy (think Tinkerbell). As for faerie, that is a word from bad modern fantasy to me.

At first sight, the walrus is more surprising because it's more difficult for humans to dress up as one. A walrus would definitely heighten my adrenaline more because it's larger and less likely to be civil, but that probably doesn't count as surprise.

Assuming it's a real walrus vs a real fairy, the fairy would be more surprising since there must be a vast conspiracy to cover up their existence. Tool-making species leave traces that should have been detected in the archeological record. For example, we know there was no ancient globe-spanning agricultural civilization from the seed dispersal data.

There are many reasons there could be a walrus at my door. One could have escaped and rung my door bell by bumping against it, someone like Ace Ventura could have put one there as an unlikely prank, etc. Even if the walrus is sapient, I wouldn't be surprised if other species play dumb so that humans don't put them to work. (https://youtu.be/wXpu1JpU5hQ) At least not as surprised as when learning about the existence of a tool-making species unknown to science.