Zompist Bboard Again

Man in Space wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 12:24 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:54 pmWait, you mean Maryland isn’t pronounced that way? Then how should I be pronouncing it?

[ˈmɛɻɨˌlɨn(ʔ)].

What lexical set is the ɨ ? RosES? What's it doing with secondary stress?

Rosa's roses [ɻoʊ̯zəz ɻoʊ̯zɨz]

Some dialects (like mine; also a branch of my family used to live in Ellicott City, Maryland) have schwi, some don’t.

As to secondary stress, idk. It feels like there’s something going on with mild stress there for me, but I could well be wrong.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 12:32 am So here we have the opposite problem to what we were just discussing: what would this be in my dialect? If I say [ˈmɛɻɨˌlɨn(ʔ)] it makes me sound American…

Something like [meːɻələ̃n], probably.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 2:43 pm Mind you that there is significant variation between EngE varieties, and ScotE shares with much of NAE variation between unraised and raised PRICE.

Yes, I have only been speaking about SSBE. I can't speak for anywhere north of the Severn or Thames, lwt alone Scotland.

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:38 pm

Lērisama wrote:No, but the Starting point of PRICE is CUT¹

I agree, for me [@j] is allophonic with [aj] (or maybe [Aj]), depending on the the following consonant (especially the voicing). Thus, I would still write it phonemically as /aj/ (or /Aj/).

[@j]
- price, lice, bite, pipe, scythe, fire, dike

[aj]
- prize, lies, bide, imbibe, tithe, file, (sometimes "tiger", but this word sometimes has [@j] too), mine, mime, fly

Ah, but you agree for a different reason. I do not have a raised PRICE, only a backed one. The similarity is only because my STRUT is lowered. It is phonetically something like [ɑ̽j], but since that is a pain to type, I just use /ʌj/.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 2:53 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 12:32 am So here we have the opposite problem to what we were just discussing: what would this be in my dialect? If I say [ˈmɛɻɨˌlɨn(ʔ)] it makes me sound American…

Something like [meːɻələ̃n], probably.

Which is Mary+Land¹, except that I don't have the weak vowel merger, which you didn't write in your American version. This would be /mɛjɹɪlənd/ in my ideolect, which I'd pronounce [mɛjɹɪln̩(d̥)]. Wait. Is it the second vowel, where you want a Schwi not a HAPPY? That's natural enough for me anyway.


¹ -land in the names on places is almost always a reduced [ln̩(d̥)]

Man in Space wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 2:49 am schwi

Now I wonder what sound would merit the name schwoo.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 2:49 am Rosa's roses [ɻoʊ̯zəz ɻoʊ̯zɨz]

Some dialects (like mine; also a branch of my family used to live in Ellicott City, Maryland) have schwi, some don’t.

As to secondary stress, idk. It feels like there’s something going on with mild stress there for me, but I could well be wrong.

Note that many dialects preserve the weak vowel distinction when the contrast between morpheme boundaries and lack thereof apply. For instance, very many dialects including my own preserve the contrast between Rosa's and roses even though they cannot form a contrast between schwa and schwi when morpheme boundary contrasts do not apply.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:54 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:59 pm

In the dialect here Maryland is /ˈmɛ̝rələnd/ [ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤɯːɰɘ̃ːnt] -- I have never actually heard anyone pronounce it *Mary-land */ˈmɛ̝riːˌlænd/ *[ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤiːˌʟ̞ɛ̃ːnt].

Agreed. I don't live anywhere Maryland, and have never heard anyone pronounce it "Mary-land".

Wait, you mean Maryland isn’t pronounced that way? Then how should I be pronouncing it?

(This reminds me of when I discovered that Arkansas is not pronounced like Kansas…)

Maryland for me is something like [ˈmɛ.ɹə.lɨn̪d], but my English is strange.

Another one that non-English speakers tend to screw up is the name of my local airport in North Carolina, Raleigh–Durham: it's more like [ˈɹɔ.liːˌdɜ.ɹəm], but the variations of "Raleigh", let alone "Durham", I heard on the flight back to NC made my head spin. (These were Air France employees, though.)

Something I ran into during my stay in Cow World Wisconsin is the town Berlin. I would pronounce it closer to the German, even in English ([ˈbɝlin], maybe because I lived in Germany as a kid), but in the area it's more [ˈbɝlɪn].

doctor shark wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 8:56 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:54 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:59 pm
Agreed. I don't live anywhere Maryland, and have never heard anyone pronounce it "Mary-land".

Wait, you mean Maryland isn’t pronounced that way? Then how should I be pronouncing it?

(This reminds me of when I discovered that Arkansas is not pronounced like Kansas…)

Maryland for me is something like [ˈmɛ.ɹə.lɨn̪d], but my English is strange.

Another one that non-English speakers tend to screw up is the name of my local airport in North Carolina, Raleigh–Durham: it's more like [ˈɹɔ.liːˌdɜ.ɹəm], but the variations of "Raleigh", let alone "Durham", I heard on the flight back to NC made my head spin. (These were Air France employees, though.)

I would normally pronounce that [ˌʁˤʷɑːɰiːˈdʲʁ̩ˤːʁˤə̃(ː)m].

doctor shark wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 8:56 am Something I ran into during my stay in Cow World Wisconsin is the town Berlin. I would pronounce it closer to the German, even in English ([ˈbɝlin], maybe because I lived in Germany as a kid), but in the area it's more [ˈbɝlɪn].

New Berlin here is typically pronounced something like [ˌnʲʷyːˈbʁ̩ˤːɰɘ̃(ː)(n)].

i've only met one person who pronounced oregon "ore-gonn", i don't think that (mis)pronunciation is particularly widespread

Emily wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 10:53 am i've only met one person who pronounced oregon "ore-gonn", i don't think that (mis)pronunciation is particularly widespread

The 'incorrect' pronunciation of Oregon, i.e. the one with LOT, is usual here.

Emily wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 10:53 am i've only met one person who pronounced oregon "ore-gonn", i don't think that (mis)pronunciation is particularly widespread

I say [ɔɻɨgɨ̃n ~ ɔɻɨgn̩] except in the name of the video game Oregon Trail (for which I’m inclined to say [ɔɻɨgɒ̃n]).

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 4:56 pm There's the case of Stiffkey, which locals pronounce with /ɪf/ rather than /uː/ or other variants based on the first morpheme being a word stew.

And then you get places like Southwell (Notts) where it seems like the locals apparently can't even agree among themselves whether it's /ˈsʌðəl/ or /ˈsaʊθwɛl/. Or Shrewsbury, which is a real can of worms. Or Cirencester, which these days tends to be pronounced as spelt but various other pronunciations, such as /ˈsɪsɪtər/, exist.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 2:53 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 12:32 am So here we have the opposite problem to what we were just discussing: what would this be in my dialect? If I say [ˈmɛɻɨˌlɨn(ʔ)] it makes me sound American…

Something like [meːɻələ̃n], probably.

I believe I say something like [ˈmæːɹɪln̩d], where [æː] is my SQUARE vowel (I rarely see it transcribed this way, but it seems accurate for my own speech). Is this approved of, coming from a BrE speaker who rarely has much need to talk about the state?

anteallach wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 2:34 amOr Cirencester, which these days tends to be pronounced as spelt but various other pronunciations, such as /ˈsɪsɪtər/, exist.

My pronouncing dictionary of English place names lists:
/sisitə/
/sizitə/
/sistə/
/sisistə/
/sisəstə/
/sisətə/
/ˈsairənˈsestə/
/saiər(ə)nsestə/
/sairinsestə/
/sairən/
/serənsəstə/
/srenstə/
/zairnsestə/
/zairnsestə/
/zairənsəstə/
/ziszətə/

Any page will reveal some bizarre pronunciation. Flicking at random to page 206, we find "Scalesceugh" /skelskə/, "Scarrowhill" /skarə/, "Scopwick" /skɔːbi/, "Scrainwood" /skɑːnwud/, "Screveton" /skriːtn/, "Scrivelsby" /səːsəlbi/, "Seabach" /sibidʒ/, "Sebergham" /sebrəm/, "Sedbergh" /sebə/, "Sedgebrook" /saidbruk/, and "Sedlescombe" /selzkəm/. Sadly such pronunciations are mostly dying out in favour of boring ones.

Darren wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 5:22 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 2:34 amOr Cirencester, which these days tends to be pronounced as spelt but various other pronunciations, such as /ˈsɪsɪtər/, exist.

My pronouncing dictionary of English place names lists:
/sisitə/
/sizitə/
/sistə/
/sisistə/
/sisəstə/
/sisətə/
/ˈsairənˈsestə/
/saiər(ə)nsestə/
/sairinsestə/
/sairən/
/serənsəstə/
/srenstə/
/zairnsestə/
/zairnsestə/
/zairənsəstə/
/ziszətə/

Any page will reveal some bizarre pronunciation. Flicking at random to page 206, we find "Scalesceugh" /skelskə/, "Scarrowhill" /skarə/, "Scopwick" /skɔːbi/, "Scrainwood" /skɑːnwud/, "Screveton" /skriːtn/, "Scrivelsby" /səːsəlbi/, "Seabach" /sibidʒ/, "Sebergham" /sebrəm/, "Sedbergh" /sebə/, "Sedgebrook" /saidbruk/, and "Sedlescombe" /selzkəm/. Sadly such pronunciations are mostly dying out in favour of boring ones.

Yes, a lot of these are dying out. I suspect this is partly greater population mobility bringing in people who don't know the local pronunciation and start using spelling pronunciations, which then take over.

Slaithwaite /ˈslaʊɪt/ is alive and well, though.

I think we've had this topic before. A few I know:

* Quincy MA, where I lived for awhile, is pronounced with [z].
* Haverhill MA is [hej vrɪl].
* Chicago is chic[ɑ]go, though some do have the general [a] pronunciation.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:14 pm * Chicago is chic[ɑ]go, though some do have the general [a] pronunciation.

Chicagoans are split on this. I hear [a], i.e. LOT/PALM, from a lot of Chicagoans, while others have [ɑ], which for those not in the know is the Chicago version of THOUGHT. Allegedly the classic working-class South Side Chicago dialect pronunciation has [æ], which is that dialect's version of LOT/PALM, but I have never actually heard this.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:30 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:14 pm * Chicago is chic[ɑ]go, though some do have the general [a] pronunciation.

Chicagoans are split on this. I hear [a], i.e. LOT/PALM, from a lot of Chicagoans, while others have [ɑ], which for those not in the know is the Chicago version of THOUGHT. Allegedly the classic working-class South Side Chicago dialect pronunciation has [æ], which is that dialect's version of LOT/PALM, but I have never actually heard this.

Yes, last time this came up, I searched for attestations, but the Web was invented too late. I've heard [æ] on a 1979 comedy bit, the "Chicago Language Tape", but I think the old Chicago dialect is gone or hard to find.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:39 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:30 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:14 pm * Chicago is chic[ɑ]go, though some do have the general [a] pronunciation.

Chicagoans are split on this. I hear [a], i.e. LOT/PALM, from a lot of Chicagoans, while others have [ɑ], which for those not in the know is the Chicago version of THOUGHT. Allegedly the classic working-class South Side Chicago dialect pronunciation has [æ], which is that dialect's version of LOT/PALM, but I have never actually heard this.

Yes, last time this came up, I searched for attestations, but the Web was invented too late. I've heard [æ] on a 1979 comedy bit, the "Chicago Language Tape", but I think the old Chicago dialect is gone or hard to find.

I remember someone here (was it linguoboy?) saying that the 'original' pronunciation is the LOT/PALM one, and the THOUGHT pronunciation is reaction to the stigmatization of the realization of LOT/PALM as [æ]. It might be said stigmatization why it is now recessive.

Up here in Wisconsin the only pronunciation I am familiar with is the THOUGHT one, for which most people here including myself usually have [ɒ] but some people, such as my mother, who grew up in Kenosha, have [ɑ], which is a cromulent pronunciation here (I catch myself sometimes pronouncing THOUGHT as [ɑ], and I noticed my sister pronouncing THOUGHT as such when I was over at hers for Christmas, and she grew up in the same house as me but has lived in Chicagoland for well over a decade now). To me, pronouncing Chicago with [a] is a clear sign one is from Chicagoland.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:14 pm * Chicago is chic[ɑ]go, though some do have the general [a] pronunciation.

Chic[ɑ]go is the only pronunciation I’m aware of… do people actually use [a] there?

(On the other hand, I’m not sure about the first consonant. Sometimes I use [ʃ], sometimes [t͡ʃ].)