Zompist Bboard Again

RichardFromMarple wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:36 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:18 pm

missals wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:00 pm One name with an interesting usage is "Cheyenne". It's originally a place name and demonym, but of such recent origin that it's never been a surname - and it resembles historical English names that incorporate "Ann", like "Mary-Anne" and "Lou-Anne". Yet it seems to have been adopted simultaneously in American English as both a female and male given name.

See also “Dakota(h)”.

Madison is a mostly female first name that slightly surprising in it's use as I would have expected it to have been given to boys due to the president James Maddison.

I think it may be the resemblance to "Maddie" (from "Madeleine") that was decisive in this case.

I still do find it vaguely jarring to have unisex names with "son" in them (or its equivalent in other languages, like "mac").

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:07 pm

RichardFromMarple wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:36 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:18 pm
See also “Dakota(h)”.

Madison is a mostly female first name that slightly surprising in it's use as I would have expected it to have been given to boys due to the president James Maddison.

I think it may be the resemblance to "Maddie" (from "Madeleine") that was decisive in this case.

I still do find it vaguely jarring to have unisex names with "son" in them (or its equivalent in other languages, like "mac").

Wasn't Madison the one popularised by Daryl Hannah's character from Splash?

Yeah, but it existed as a (rare) female name for at least a decade before that. Its (meagre) popularity as a male name came after its use in Splash.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:07 pm

RichardFromMarple wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:36 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:18 pm
See also “Dakota(h)”.

Madison is a mostly female first name that slightly surprising in it's use as I would have expected it to have been given to boys due to the president James Maddison.

I think it may be the resemblance to "Maddie" (from "Madeleine") that was decisive in this case.

I still do find it vaguely jarring to have unisex names with "son" in them (or its equivalent in other languages, like "mac").

That's true of girls called McKenna, which would have been an rare name for a boy not long ago.

Chase is another name that seems to becoming more common for girls, even if it makes me think of the character from Paw Patrol!

RichardFromMarple wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:46 pmChase is another name that seems to becoming more common for girls, even if it makes me think of the character from Paw Patrol!

I was going to express disbelief, but then I remembered Chase Masterson (Leeta in DS9), who incidentally must be in her 40s or 50s at this point.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:53 pm

Incidentally, the earlist example I know of this is the original Spencer Compton, born 1601

This is still the case. However, I was just looking at a list of governors of the bank of england, and I realised that this practice (surnames as forenames) was more common much earlier than I realised. It seems to have been a thing in the late 17th century.

Among the governors, it first shows up with Delillers Carbonnel, born 1654. I don't know for sure where 'Delillers' came from, but it surely must be a surname originally. Delillers' successor was Stamp Brooksbank, born 1694, whose mother's maiden name was indeed 'Stamp' (and he was his maternal grandfather's heir, which may be relevant). Thirteen years after Stamp left office, we get Matthews Beachcroft (wikipedia doesn't even have a birthdate), who was followed in turn, two years later, by Merrik Burrell, grandson of a John Merrik.

However, after Burrell, the phenomenon doesn't arise again until Sheffield Neave*, born 1799 - interestingly, Sheffield was NOT the grandson of a Mr Sheffield. He was succeeded by Bonamy Dobrée - I've no idea whether 'Bonamy' comes from a surname or is just a weird first name (bonhomie?). Two years after Bonamy left office, Kirkman Hodgson came to office (born 1814). Now, here's a really weird thing: Kirkman Hodgson married Frances Butler, and their son was called... Robert Kirkman. So the surname has become a forename, and then become a surname again!?

Ten years later there's a sort-of-example with Hucks Gibbs, but apparently he was really Henry Hucks Gibbs, and just went by Hucks. But it didn't start in earnest again until the 20th century, with Montagu Collett Norman (born 1871) and Cameron Fromanteel Cobold (born 1904). Cameron was mother's maiden name, but I don't know about Montagu. And then there was Leslie O'Brien (born 1908).


Now, just looking at one list of people is hardly a robust survey. But it clearly goes back longer than I thought, at least among the ruling class. But it also seems - at first sight - to go in pulses - one in the late 17th, one in the late 18th, and one in the late 19th (and early 20th) centuries. Interestingly, the first pulse came at a time of extreme nomenclative chaos. The middle 17th century saw two huge expansions of the naming system, that to a large extent did away with the relatively restricted saints-and-germans dominance: first, the Puritans introduced biblical names (Daniel, Samuel, Jonathan, etc); then, because these became popular with non-puritans and hence useless as markers of in-group legitimacy, they introduced a wave of virtue, vice and praise names (Faith, Grace, No-Merit, Humiliation, If-Jesus-Had'st-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Woulds't-Be-Damned, etc). The former have been very influential, particularly for men, while the latter have largely died out for men but persist for women. It makes sense that there'd be a burst of surname-naming following this (although Spencer Compton proves that it didn't begin the practice). Around this time, people would have had difficulty knowing what things were and weren't names, as the pool of acceptible names had, in two generations, massively expanded.

I wonder if a similar process explains the recent boom, and perhaps why these names became more entrenched in the US than the UK - maybe they're a reaction to multiculturalism? The inflow of new names creates a naming-pool instability allowing surnames to be accepted? It's also notable that 'hippy names' (plants and climatic phenomena) have expanded at the same time, implying that the current burst of surnamings is part of a broader instability, rather than a specific limited phenomenon.

[I've found one person from the mid-18th century: Hucks Gibbs named his son Vicary Gibbs, after an earlier Vicary Gibbs born in the 1750s]


*Sheffield Neave's grandson was Sheffield Airey Neave, whose son was the famous Airey Neave - Airey also being originally a surname.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:36 pmHe was succeeded by Bonamy Dobrée - I've no idea whether 'Bonamy' comes from a surname or is just a weird first name (bonhomie?).

Bonamy sounds like an adaptation of the French phrase "bon ami" ("good friend") to me, which is semantically similar to the original meaning of some biblical forenames (cf. David).

cedh wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:31 am

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:36 pmHe was succeeded by Bonamy Dobrée - I've no idea whether 'Bonamy' comes from a surname or is just a weird first name (bonhomie?).

Bonamy sounds like an adaptation of the French phrase "bon ami" ("good friend") to me, which is semantically similar to the original meaning of some biblical forenames (cf. David).

Yes, certainly. But that's not a normal way to form names in English, and in some ways it looks more like a surname (which can sometimes be derived from epithets - "Friend" is a surname, for instance). If it were from Bonhomie, that would make more sense as a forename, since then it would be an example of a puritan virtue name, albeit a strange one. I guess 'bon amie' could be puritan too, since they did sometime violate normal syntax (eg Praise-God as a name), but it would be a more extreme one.

I genuinely don't know the origin of the name.

There's a longstanding family of apothecaries in France named Bonamy. This appears to be an adaptation of Italian Buonamici, as the founding ancestor was a Florentine immigrant to Nantes. Nantes is also home to family of industrialists named Dobrée, so I think it's quite likely the two families intermarried at some point and the name of Bonamy Dobrée is a testament to this.

Apparently, Bonamy Dobrée's son, Bonamy Dobrée, had a son, Bonamy Dobrée, who had a son, Bonamy Dobrée (a member of the Bloomsbury Set) who liked to boast that both his Bonamy ancestor and his Dobrée ancestor had been mentioned by Thackery. Apparently, both the Bonamies and the Dobrées ended up as bankers.

So, yes, surname-to-forename. The interesting question then would be: did the first Bonamy Dobrée get the name in Nantes (i.e. implying that the phenomenon was already known in France in the late 18th century) or did the two international banking families intermarry in England? The first Bonamy Dobrée was the son of Samuel Dobrée, Head of the House of Dobrée. Your link to the Nantes Dobrée has a different father (and is only ten years older than Bonamy), so not a brother; interestingly that link links the family to Guernsey, and Bonamy Dobrée (IV) still called himself a channel islander. So maybe Bonamy's family never went to Nantes, but stayed in the Channel Islands, while another branch moved to France?


Meanwhile, "Bonamy Dobrée, Suggia" is the name of a cello.


------

RIGHT. SO.
[I know nobody else particularly cares about this obscure question, but it was bugging me]

The D'Obrée family were feudal lords in Normandy. Jean Dobrée came to Guernsey, losing the apostrophe, in the 16th century, as a religious refugee. The Dobrées became powerful and famous on the island, many of them becoming 'Jurat'. A Peter Dobrée, who married Rachel Bonamy, died in 1808. Peter Dobrée had three sons - Bonamy Dobrée, Samuel Dobrée, and Hilary Dobrée. Samuel Dobrée created the House of Dobrée and Sons, a bank, and HIS son, Bonamy Dobrée (who begat Bonamy Dobrée, who begat Bonamy Dobrée, who begat Bonamy Dobrée) became Governor of the Bank of England. There's also a Peter Bonamy Dobrée - son of the first Bonamy Dobrée (son of Peter) and who married the daughter of Hilary.

The family also provide a Saumarez Dobrée and a De Lisle Dobrée, who confusingly a from the third branch, even though the children of the founder of the second branch also married into the Saumarez and De Lisle families. Conclusion: Guernsey "was" shockingly incestuous. There's also a "Mrs Havilland Carey" which is another nice surname name. [her sister ALSO married into the Carey family, as did at least one person from another branch of the family.]

I don't see any immediate way for anyone in this family to have gone to Nantes, so they must be more distant relatives.

On the naming front, incidentally, Bonamy Dobrée (IV) married Gladys May Mabel Brooke-Pechell, who, naturally, changed her name on marriage, becoming... Valentine Dobrée. It's easy to forget how impermanent names used to be even in relatively recent times...

This isn't on the same subject all, but it's a Fun Fact About Names that I only recently learned: the name "Myra" was invented by Fulke Greville for his Caelica poems, and has no known etymology. It may be a romantic cypher of 'Mary', although given the atmosphere of the poems and Myra's other aliases, I suspect there's an influence from "myria" in there too.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:40 pm I'll go further and say that using family names as given names is a tradition I associate primarily with WASPs. Particularly in the South, it was a way of preserving a maternal surname into the next generation. Ethnically, white Southern Protestants are overwhelmingly English, Scottish, and Scots-Irish, so it's not surprising that the most common given names derived from surnames are too. I can think of a smattering of examples from Dutch (e.g. Roosevelt), German (e.g. Meyer), and French (e.g. Bardot), but they stand out as exceptions.

This is indeed a WASP thing; I, my father, and all of the males on my paternal grandmother's side that I know of were subject to this convention. It seems to be most common with the mother's maiden name.

There is also, IIRC, a North-South split, where Southern girls can get an ancestor's surname (again, sometimes [mostly?] the mother's maiden name) but the convention predominantly applies to boys in the North.

One WASP (or at least Puritan) convention that seems to have thoroughly died out is Puritan virtue/biblical names like Preserved Fish and Increase Mather--I don't think you would be able to find anybody naming their kid Increase today, and if you did they would probably not be from New England owing to the unusual cultural shift wherein evangelical Protestantism is now predominantly Cavalier and Borderer (rather than Puritan).

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:27 pmThis isn't on the same subject all, but it's a Fun Fact About Names that I only recently learned: the name "Myra" was invented by Fulke Greville for his Caelica poems, and has no known etymology. It may be a romantic cypher of 'Mary', although given the atmosphere of the poems and Myra's other aliases, I suspect there's an influence from "myria" in there too.

A couple centuries later, the Provençal poet Frédéric Mistral coined the name "Mirèio" for an eponymous poem which became his most important work. The name may also derive ultimately from Maria but was also influenced by Provençal meravilho "miracle" and mirar "look". It entred French in the form Mireille and Spanish in the form Mireya. I thought its popularity was chiefly confined to Europe but just the other day we hired a new student worker named Mireya who was born in Mexico City.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:40 pm

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:27 pmThis isn't on the same subject all, but it's a Fun Fact About Names that I only recently learned: the name "Myra" was invented by Fulke Greville for his Caelica poems, and has no known etymology. It may be a romantic cypher of 'Mary', although given the atmosphere of the poems and Myra's other aliases, I suspect there's an influence from "myria" in there too.

A couple centuries later, the Provençal poet Frédéric Mistral coined the name "Mirèio" for an eponymous poem which became his most important work. The name may also derive ultimately from Maria but was also influenced by Provençal meravilho "miracle" and mirar "look". It entred French in the form Mireille and Spanish in the form Mireya. I thought its popularity was chiefly confined to Europe but just the other day we hired a new student worker named Mireya who was born in Mexico City.

It shouldn't be weird to find out that individual, common names were invented by a specific known individual... and yet somehow it is.

dhok wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:34 pm One WASP (or at least Puritan) convention that seems to have thoroughly died out is Puritan virtue/biblical names like Preserved Fish and Increase Mather

As has been mentioned. However, Puritain virtue names names are still around, they're just usually now found only with women - Hope, Grace, Faith, Charity, Charisma, Patience, Prudence, Verity, etc. Puritan vice names - No-Merit, Humiliation, Hopeless, etc - are indeed now rare.

But, as I said, Puritan biblical names are now extremely common - Daniel, Samuel, Nathan, Nathaniel, Jonathan, Joseph, Rebecca, Rachel, Micah, Jude, etc. To be sure, they're less common than before, and you get fewer Jephthas and Melchizedeks than once was wont, but...

[Of course, these names have been reinforced in some cases by Jews - but historically that influence has been far, far smaller than the influence of Puritans, and indeed in many cases puritan names have been re-adopted as Jewish names for their resemblance to traditional Yiddish (or I guess Ladino) forms of the names - the son of Shmuel become Samuel, and the like]

evangelical Protestantism is now predominantly Cavalier and Borderer (rather than Puritan).

Evangelical protestantism is now in now way Cavalier. I don't see the evangelical right issuing any Edicts of Toleration or embracing Catholic rituals these days...

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:36 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:40 pm

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:27 pmThis isn't on the same subject all, but it's a Fun Fact About Names that I only recently learned: the name "Myra" was invented by Fulke Greville for his Caelica poems, and has no known etymology. It may be a romantic cypher of 'Mary', although given the atmosphere of the poems and Myra's other aliases, I suspect there's an influence from "myria" in there too.

A couple centuries later, the Provençal poet Frédéric Mistral coined the name "Mirèio" for an eponymous poem which became his most important work. The name may also derive ultimately from Maria but was also influenced by Provençal meravilho "miracle" and mirar "look". It entred French in the form Mireille and Spanish in the form Mireya. I thought its popularity was chiefly confined to Europe but just the other day we hired a new student worker named Mireya who was born in Mexico City.

It shouldn't be weird to find out that individual, common names were invented by a specific known individual... and yet somehow it is.

Shakespeare apparently invented Cordelia, Miranda, and Jessica.

Cordelia comes from Monmouth, who may have taken it from Welsh mythology Creiddylad, may have made it up. Miranda comes from Latin, not Shakespeare, although Shakespeare may have been responsible for its use as a first name in the English speaking world. Jessica is a biblical name; Shakespeare is just the earliest source for the modern English spelling.

mèþru wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:14 amCordelia comes from Monmouth, who may have taken it from Welsh mythology Creiddylad, may have made it up. Miranda comes from Latin, not Shakespeare, although Shakespeare may have been responsible for its use as a first name in the English speaking world. Jessica is a biblical name; Shakespeare is just the earliest source for the modern English spelling.

I think that effectively counts as "inventing the name". No one but a specialist would recognise "Jessica" as a form of "Iscah".

Do you have any evidence for use of "Miranda" as a given name elsewhere before Shakespeare's first use of it? "Miranda" is such an unusual name to German-speakers that a friend of this name found they confused it with "Mirinda", the name of a Spanish soft drink. And Spanish Wikipedia says: "Su difusión en el mundo angloparlante se debe al personaje creado por William Shakespeare en La Tempestad. En España su uso es esporádico y poco frecuente, resultado, principalmente, del influjo del cine y de las series norteamericanas." [tl;dr: Its use in Spain is due to USAmerican influence.]

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:45 pm

dhok wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:34 pm One WASP (or at least Puritan) convention that seems to have thoroughly died out is Puritan virtue/biblical names like Preserved Fish and Increase Mather

As has been mentioned. However, Puritain virtue names names are still around, they're just usually now found only with women - Hope, Grace, Faith, Charity, Charisma, Patience, Prudence, Verity, etc.

Probably common in Nigeria - there was a guy at one of my old jobs named Blessing, and then there's Goodluck Jonathan and so on.

Not just Nigeria; it seems to be a general practice among very religious African Protestants in areas formerly colonised by the UK