Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:15 pm**

Whimemsz wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:07 am Looks good to me.

Thanks Whimemsz!

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:22 pm
{o,u} → {ə,ɨ} / _(C)(C)[-round+vowel]
(note: still not sure whether to have this apply to short /o u/ only or also long /oː uː/ — which variant is more plausible?)
Well, it's probably somewhat more likely that it would only apply to short vowels, but there's no reason it can't apply to both short and long vowels; both changes are plausible enough.

I currently have it being applied to short vowels only in my SCA, so I’ll just keep it that way. I am wondering though: why do you think it’s more likely to apply to short vowels only?

Posted: **Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:59 pm**

Witness me:

CV syllables
/m n/
/p t t͡ʃ k/
/s ʃ r l/
nucleuses have modal and breathy voice

t͡ʃ > ʈ͡ʂ > ʈ͡ʂʷ
T S > (D̤ Z̤ >) D Z / _V[+breathy]
r l > (r̤ l̤ >) ð̠ ɮ > ð ʝ > ð j / _V[+breathy]
V[+breathy] > V[-breathy]

/m n/
/p t ʈ͡ʂʷ k/
/b d ɖ͡ʒʷ g/
/s ʃ z ʒ ð/
/r l j/

ʈ͡ʂʷ ɖ͡ʒʷ > ʈʷ ɖʷ > (ʈ͡p ɖ͡b >) t͡p d͡b
T D > Tʰ T
t͡p ð > b d
Tʰ > θ
ɸ θ θ͡ɸ > f θ̠ θ̼ > f θ ð
θ ð > t͡s d͡z

/m n/
/p t t͡s k/
/b d d͡z/
/f s z ʃ ʒ x/
/r l j/
With vowel deletions along the way, the syllable is (C)CV(C)(C)

Posted: **Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:36 pm**

Zju wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:59 pm Witness me:

CV syllables
/m n/
/p t t͡ʃ k/
/s ʃ r l/
nucleuses have modal and breathy voice

Which vowels do you have? Or is it irrelevant as these changes apply only to consonants?

Posted: **Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:31 pm**

At the start and end there's plain /a ɔ u ɛ i/; there's some spiel going on with diphthongs, but it doesn't really internaply with the consontantal changes.

Posted: **Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:05 pm**

I'm somewhat satisfied with consonants in modern Wąylętska (< Old Vínlenzka) or Vinlandic. Now I am toying with the vowels, deriving them organically from Old West Norse:

Code: Select all

ɛ	>	e
ɛː	>	ja
e	>	e
eː	>	je
i	>	i
iː	>	aj
ø	>	e
øː	>	ew
y	>	i
yː	>	iw
ɔ	>	ə
ɔː	>	wa
o	>	ə
oː	>	ow
u	>	o
u	>	aw

ei	>	ej
ey	>	oj
ɔu	>	əw

Vn(C,#) > Ṽ
V(r,l)(C,#) > Vː

Which gives this vowel phoneme inventory:

i iː ĩ ĩː <i í į į́>
e eː ẽ ẽː ə əː ə̃ ə̃ː o oː õ õː <e é ę ę́ ø ǿ ø̨ ǿ̨ o ó ǫ ǫ́>
a aː ã ãː <a á ą ą́>

My concern here is less quality and more distribution: are these "diphthongs" logical for a native-american influenced language? Is there any phoneme I might want more of (e.g. perhaps I shouldn't diphthongize certain vowels? Except to get something similar to Algonquin of course.)

Posted: **Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:38 am**

If some of the falling diphthongs feel out of place, here are a few alternative suggestions for them:

- */øː yː/ could break into rising diphthongs instead, giving either /we wi/ or */jo ju/ (with the latter then shifting to /jə jo/)
- similarly, */oː/ could break into /wo/ or /wə/
- */ei ey ɔu/ could merge with either */iː yː uː/ or */eː øː oː/ early on
- */ey/ might also develop into */jyː/ > */ju/ > /jo/, distinct from original */yː/ > /wi/
- if they stay distinct from original long vowels, */ei ɔu/ could develop symmetrically, giving either /əj əw/ or /ej ow/

Questions about distribution could more easily be answered with a sample text to get a feeling about how the language looks.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:49 am**

Areal effects can take a while to propagate. Turkish doesn't look, phonologically or otherwise, much like modern Greek.

Menominee has falling diphthongs [u:ă i:ă]. Rising diphthongs are pretty rare in North America, though.

You could perhaps insert a dummy vowel, like *awC > awəC.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:04 pm**

cedh wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:38 am If some of the falling diphthongs feel out of place, here are a few alternative suggestions for them:

- */øː yː/ could break into rising diphthongs instead, giving either /we wi/ or */jo ju/ (with the latter then shifting to /jə jo/)
- similarly, */oː/ could break into /wo/ or /wə/
- */ei ey ɔu/ could merge with either */iː yː uː/ or */eː øː oː/ early on
- */ey/ might also develop into */jyː/ > */ju/ > /jo/, distinct from original */yː/ > /wi/
- if they stay distinct from original long vowels, */ei ɔu/ could develop symmetrically, giving either /əj əw/ or /ej ow/

Questions about distribution could more easily be answered with a sample text to get a feeling about how the language looks.

I might keep them as is now, I was just questioning the symmetry of them all. Anyway thanks.

dhok wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:49 am Areal effects can take a while to propagate. Turkish doesn't look, phonologically or otherwise, much like modern Greek.

Menominee has falling diphthongs [u:ă i:ă]. Rising diphthongs are pretty rare in North America, though.

You could perhaps insert a dummy vowel, like *awC > awəC.

Except it's the reverse for Cappadochian Greek, which had adopted everything from Turkish vowel harmony to syntax. (And this language is supposed to be a mixed language like CG, which will be evident when I start more work on the grammar.)

Technically these arent diphthongs, which is why I put it into quotes, but sequences of a glide and vowel. The vowel prop is an idea though.

Posted: **Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:33 pm**

I’ll post my full sound changes once I’ve answered this question: if I have a series of palatilised and labialised consonants, can they be analysed as being viable codas, or if they occur in a coda-esque position should they be analysed as really short CV sequences?

Posted: **Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:26 pm**

holbuzvala wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:33 pm I’ll post my full sound changes once I’ve answered this question: if I have a series of palatilised and labialised consonants, can they be analysed as being viable codas, or if they occur in a coda-esque position should they be analysed as really short CV sequences?

I would expect the first approach to happen, but the second sounds like a really interesting thing to do as well!

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:06 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:26 pm
holbuzvala wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:33 pm I’ll post my full sound changes once I’ve answered this question: if I have a series of palatilised and labialised consonants, can they be analysed as being viable codas, or if they occur in a coda-esque position should they be analysed as really short CV sequences?
I would expect the first approach to happen, but the second sounds like a really interesting thing to do as well!

I'll think I'll have to do both then, and see what each yields!

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:10 am**

holbuzvala wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:33 pm I’ll post my full sound changes once I’ve answered this question: if I have a series of palatilised and labialised consonants, can they be analysed as being viable codas, or if they occur in a coda-esque position should they be analysed as really short CV sequences?

Look towards none other than Romanian, which has -ʲ as a viable coda, and Gothic has viable -ʷ. Although the former seems to be analyzed at least as a short /i/, mostly due to it alternating with /i/ in its morphology.

Posted: **Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:27 am**

Ælfwine wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:10 am
holbuzvala wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:33 pm I’ll post my full sound changes once I’ve answered this question: if I have a series of palatilised and labialised consonants, can they be analysed as being viable codas, or if they occur in a coda-esque position should they be analysed as really short CV sequences?
Look towards none other than Romanian, which has -ʲ as a viable coda, and Gothic has viable -ʷ. Although the former seems to be analyzed at least as a short /i/, mostly due to it alternating with /i/ in its morphology.

Ah, yes - I'd forgotten about Romanian. Russian has palatilised codas as well. Good to know about Gothic. Thanks

Posted: **Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:45 pm**

Ælfwine wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:10 amLook towards none other than Romanian, which has -ʲ as a viable coda, and Gothic has viable -ʷ. Although the former seems to be analyzed at least as a short /i/, mostly due to it alternating with /i/ in its morphology.

-- Plural [ʲ] ~ [ i] --
rațiuni [raˈtsjunʲ] 'motives'
litri [ˈlitɾi] 'litres'

-- 2SG [ʲ] ~ [ i] --
tu chemi [kemʲ] 'you call'
tu afli [ˈafli] 'you find out [some info]'

Hmm, yeah.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:34 am**

Ælfwine wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:10 am
holbuzvala wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:33 pm I’ll post my full sound changes once I’ve answered this question: if I have a series of palatilised and labialised consonants, can they be analysed as being viable codas, or if they occur in a coda-esque position should they be analysed as really short CV sequences?
Look towards none other than Romanian, which has -ʲ as a viable coda, and Gothic has viable -ʷ. Although the former seems to be analyzed at least as a short /i/, mostly due to it alternating with /i/ in its morphology.

I once came across a street vendor (presumably Romanian but I didn't ask) who had [ʲ] for word-final English /ɪ/ -- so "twenty" was [twɛntʲ], "fifty" was [fiftʲ], etc. Very clearly monosyllabic.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:02 am**

Romanian seems not to borrow palatalization in loans from Russian, at least not as palatalization. e.g. Russian Я shows up as ROmanian /ea/. But I didnt find any loans that had original final palatalized consonants in Russian, so I cant be fully sure that it never happens.

Posted: **Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:35 pm**

holbuzvala wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:27 am Ah, yes - I'd forgotten about Romanian. Russian has palatilised codas as well. Good to know about Gothic. Thanks

Russian absolutely has palatalised codas out ths ass, man. It's freaking everywhere. And not just Cʲ# codas, it also has palatalsed coda clusters.

Anyway, I wanted to ask about what should I do with unconditional fortition of falling diphthongs (a la Greek). See, I have the modern English /Vɪ̯/ become /Vʃ/ word finally and before voiceless consonants or /aʒ/ before voiced consonants. So I wonder, what should I do with words like "life" that become /ɣaʃf/ in the proto-language? That is, what's more realistic, the first consonant fortitioning (so you get /ɣatʃfa/ later), or the second one (/ɣaʃpa/)?

Posted: **Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:40 pm**

i think if youre really evenly split between the two choices, I'd recommend the first, since theres a tendency for clusters and syllables to both progress from low to high sonority. But exceptions abound .... Greek did /pt kt/ > /ft xt/, even in syllable-initial position. thus the word for wing is now /fteró/. Really, you can go either way. but did Greek really do *unconditional* fortition there? the words like /zefs/ for Zeus are reimportations of classical words.

Posted: **Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:14 pm**

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:35 pm Anyway, I wanted to ask about what should I do with unconditional fortition of falling diphthongs (a la Greek). See, I have the modern English /Vɪ̯/ become /Vʃ/ word finally and before voiceless consonants or /aʒ/ before voiced consonants. So I wonder, what should I do with words like "life" that become /ɣaʃf/ in the proto-language? That is, what's more realistic, the first consonant fortitioning (so you get /ɣatʃfa/ later), or the second one (/ɣaʃpa/)?

Quick question: How did you get from /l/ to /ɣ/?

Posted: **Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:01 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:14 pm Quick question: How did you get from /l/ to /ɣ/?

That's just bog-standard l-vocalisation. Hell, most of native English speakers in the US already dit it in some environments.

Zompist Bboard Again

Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread