Zompist Bboard Again

For me, "pop" is a music genre, "a pop" is a lollipop, "soda" is a sweet carbonated beverage, "baking soda" is something you bake with, and ice cream on top of rootbeer is an "(ice cream) float" or "(rootbeer) float".

Yesterday I was reminded of a pretty stark one: In most of the USA, a Hoosier is a person from Indiana. In the St Louis area, however, this is a pejorative term for a working-class white person, comparable (but not identical in meaning) to such terms as "redneck", "hick", and "white trash". No one's quite sure how this developed; the simplest explanation is that some lower-class folk from Indiana moved to the area and gained a negative reputation, but no one's really been able to pinpoint such a migration at the appropriate time. (Even in the wider meaning of "Indianan", there's no accepted etymological consensus on Hoosier.)

Having grown up with the derogatory St Louis usage, I was pretty taken aback when the 1986 movie Hoosiers (about an underdog sports team from Indiana) was released.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:32 pmI tried to order a "soda" at the soda counter and was baffled that the soda jerk kept asking me, "What kind of ice cream do you want?" I just kept repeating, "No, I want a soda!

Here's some dialect variation: it took me a while to work out that "soda jerk" was not here intended as an insult.

Yeah, "soda jerk" isn't a thing in my variety, either.

I've noted a few false friends for some varieties of Malayalam in the Dravidian Language Varieties thread I created.

"Soda jerk" is not in current use in my dialect, and to my knowledge the term is dated in general.

On that note, it should be noted that soda here in Wisconsin is actually a dialectal term, since in most of the Midwest the term is pop but in eastern Wisconsin it is soda.

I say soda, too.

Another German one: In Freiburg im Breisgau, the marsh marigold (Caltha palustris) is called Bachbummele. The Standard German vernacular name is Sumpfdotterblume which means "marsh yolk flower".

From the various English examples:

A carbonated beverage is a soda or fizzy drink, but I do understand pop; calling it coke would make me think specifically of some form of cola. Soda jerk is obsolete.

The three meals are typically breakfast, lunch, and dinner; supper is a word typically restricted to older people, and is probably on its way to becoming entirely obsolete.

A cruller is a round ridged cake doughnut, synonym French cruller; I don't frequently use Long John (though shops that sell them do) or bar to describe any similar item of confectionery, which I would normally call an éclair, with the pretentious accent and all. An old-fashoned is a mixed alcoholic beverage with muddled sugar and bitters and some form of alcohol (I've encountered multiple different ways of preparing them), and I've never heard the term applied to a doughnut.

An alley may or may not be big enough to drive through, but does usually imply some degree of crampedness, and possibly danger; it is also sometimes a synonym of avenue in the sense of "walkway going under trees on the grounds of a big fancy house", but this later one is very rarely used, and "avenue" is the more general term. A breezeway is typically covered above, but not on the sides.

There are A LOT of names for specific varieties of fish in Malayalam.

"Fizzy drink" sounds very British/Commonwealth-y to me. "Pop" is recognizable. "Coke" makes me think of Coca-Cola. Supper is obsolete for me. Eclair sounds like Indian English to me. Bar makes no sense without a modifier or some context that makes it clear (e.g. "chocolate bar"). Never heard of French crullers, Long Johns, old-fashoneds, or breezeways.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pm The three meals are typically breakfast, lunch, and dinner; supper is a word typically restricted to older people, and is probably on its way to becoming entirely obsolete.

I find it fascinating whenever people mention this. To me (a fairly young person), ‘dinner’ and ‘supper’ are nearly interchangeable; if anything, I find ‘supper’ less formal than ‘dinner’. I may be unique in this given what other people say about these words.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pmI don't frequently use Long John (though shops that sell them do) or bar to describe any similar item of confectionery, which I would normally call an éclair, with the pretentious accent and all. An old-fashoned is a mixed alcoholic beverage with muddled sugar and bitters and some form of alcohol (I've encountered multiple different ways of preparing them), and I've never heard the term applied to a doughnut.

An eclair is a completely different pastry from a Long John. It's made from choux dough, which gives it a crisp texture similar to a cream puff whereas Long Johns are soft (the softest kind of donut IME). It is always filled with crème pâtissière and usually frosted with chocolate icing; around here, Long Johns are usually unfilled and frosted with vanilla icing. Plus Long Johns are usually about twice the size of eclairs (and half the price).

Sure, an old fashioned is a cocktail as well as a donut. (Brandy is preferred just north of us in Wisconsin where they usually top them with--ugh--lemon-lime soda. Here in Chicago the default is bourbon and they're never drunk tall.) But I'm never consuming them at the same time or even in similar circumstances so there's never been a lick of confusion. In fact, the polysemy had simply not occurred to me.

I'm not sure if this truly belongs here, but it amused me no end: Last weekend I discussed with my neighbour what we might want to plant on the parkway corner. He said, "Echinacea is always nice" and then mentioned seeing them marketed somewhere as "purple coneflowers". "C'mon", he said mockingly, "we know what echinacea is!" I told him that, far from being some new branding gimmick, "purple coneflower" was the first name I learned for these plants and I only got used to hearing them called "echinacea" relatively recently, after they became popular as an herbal supplement.

Oh, and if I haven't mentioned it before, I know three completely different names for Vinca minor: My father (from the Baltimore area) called the plant "myrtle"; I don't really understand why because, for most people, this is an evergreen shrub with white flowers and purples berries, as opposed to a groundcover with purple flowers and no fruits at all. My husband (from the Bay Area) called it "vinca", though the most common species out there is actually Vinca major. And my mom (from St Louis) calls it "periwinkle", which is the name I typically use unless I'm talking to gardeners.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 9:34 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pmI don't frequently use Long John (though shops that sell them do) or bar to describe any similar item of confectionery, which I would normally call an éclair, with the pretentious accent and all. An old-fashoned is a mixed alcoholic beverage with muddled sugar and bitters and some form of alcohol (I've encountered multiple different ways of preparing them), and I've never heard the term applied to a doughnut.

An eclair is a completely different pastry from a Long John. It's made from choux dough, which gives it a crisp texture similar to a cream puff whereas Long Johns are soft (the softest kind of donut IME). It is always filled with crème pâtissière and usually frosted with chocolate icing; around here, Long Johns are usually unfilled and frosted with vanilla icing. Plus Long Johns are usually about twice the size of eclairs (and half the price).

This is probably just me not knowing much about pastries, but I'm likely to call any such long pastry an "éclair", and to think of "Long Johns" as a kind of thermal underwear.

Sure, an old fashioned is a cocktail as well as a donut. (Brandy is preferred just north of us in Wisconsin where they usually top them with--ugh--lemon-lime soda. Here in Chicago the default is bourbon and they're never drunk tall.) But I'm never consuming them at the same time or even in similar circumstances so there's never been a lick of confusion. In fact, the polysemy had simply not occurred to me.

I'd never heard of the word used for a doughnut till now.

I'm not sure if this truly belongs here, but it amused me no end: Last weekend I discussed with my neighbour what we might want to plant on the parkway corner. He said, "Echinacea is always nice" and then mentioned seeing them marketed somewhere as "purple coneflowers". "C'mon", he said mockingly, "we know what echinacea is!" I told him that, far from being some new branding gimmick, "purple coneflower" was the first name I learned for these plants and I only got used to hearing them called "echinacea" relatively recently, after they became popular as an herbal supplement.

I learnt the common and scientific name for this one at the same time, but normally use "echinacea".

Oh, and if I haven't mentioned it before, I know three completely different names for Vinca minor: My father (from the Baltimore area) called the plant "myrtle"; I don't really understand why because, for most people, this is an evergreen shrub with white flowers and purples berries, as opposed to a groundcover with purple flowers and no fruits at all. My husband (from the Bay Area) called it "vinca", though the most common species out there is actually Vinca major. And my mom (from St Louis) calls it "periwinkle", which is the name I typically use unless I'm talking to gardeners.

I also use "periwinkle" for this flower (I named a cat this once, too). "Myrtle" makes me think of "crepe myrtle" — plants of genus myrtus don't seem to be common anywhere I've lived; by contamination with French myrtille, I also associate the word with blueberries.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:49 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pm The three meals are typically breakfast, lunch, and dinner; supper is a word typically restricted to older people, and is probably on its way to becoming entirely obsolete.

I find it fascinating whenever people mention this. To me (a fairly young person), ‘dinner’ and ‘supper’ are nearly interchangeable; if anything, I find ‘supper’ less formal than ‘dinner’. I may be unique in this given what other people say about these words.

I am the same way as Rounin Ryuuji here.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pm The three meals are typically breakfast, lunch, and dinner; supper is a word typically restricted to older people, and is probably on its way to becoming entirely obsolete.

I know a lot of people who have this pattern, but in my family we eat breakfast, lunch and tea. Dinner can be a hot meal at lunchtime (e.g. school dinners) or in the evening. Supper is a snack had later in the evening.

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:54 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pm The three meals are typically breakfast, lunch, and dinner; supper is a word typically restricted to older people, and is probably on its way to becoming entirely obsolete.

I know a lot of people who have this pattern, but in my family we eat breakfast, lunch and tea. Dinner can be a hot meal at lunchtime (e.g. school dinners) or in the evening. Supper is a snack had later in the evening.

That strikes me as a very Commonwealth or British thing; while I understand what people mean by "tea" as a meal, and while I might use it when writing fiction, I don't think I've ever used it in daily life for one.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:45 pm Another German one: In Freiburg im Breisgau, the marsh marigold (Caltha palustris) is called Bachbummele. The Standard German vernacular name is Sumpfdotterblume which means "marsh yolk flower".

Butterblume sounds best to me, but I could imagine someone saying Kohlblume or Kuhblume in Northern Germany.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:16 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 9:34 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pmI don't frequently use Long John (though shops that sell them do) or bar to describe any similar item of confectionery, which I would normally call an éclair, with the pretentious accent and all. An old-fashoned is a mixed alcoholic beverage with muddled sugar and bitters and some form of alcohol (I've encountered multiple different ways of preparing them), and I've never heard the term applied to a doughnut.

An eclair is a completely different pastry from a Long John. It's made from choux dough, which gives it a crisp texture similar to a cream puff whereas Long Johns are soft (the softest kind of donut IME). It is always filled with crème pâtissière and usually frosted with chocolate icing; around here, Long Johns are usually unfilled and frosted with vanilla icing. Plus Long Johns are usually about twice the size of eclairs (and half the price).

This is probably just me not knowing much about pastries, but I'm likely to call any such long pastry an "éclair", and to think of "Long Johns" as a kind of thermal underwear.

Eclair to me is not a pastry at all but rather some kind of small candy, since this seems to be what it means in Indian English.

Vijay wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 4:57 pmEclair to me is not a pastry at all but rather some kind of small candy, since this seems to be what it means in Indian English.

You mean the kind made by Cadbury?

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 6:15 pm

Vijay wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 4:57 pmEclair to me is not a pastry at all but rather some kind of small candy, since this seems to be what it means in Indian English.

You mean the kind made by Cadbury?

Oh, maybe! (The place where I specifically remember seeing this word is an Indian comic, so it just looks like this small piece of candy that's made of chocolate).