Zompist Bboard Again

aporaporimos wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 3:54 pmI think this set of aspect terms is fine... as long as you don't also use "episodic" to contrast with "gnomic" for verbs marked / not marked with a direction particle, since that seems to be an orthogonal distinction.

That's the quandary, here. "Episodic" works really well for these aspects, since it's referring to an "episode" of the state, action, or activity. Unfortunately, "episodic" is the exact term used for "not gnomic".

I just checked a thesaurus for "episode" and found "incident", so I could maybe use "incidental". That doesn't seem great.

"Gnomic" is a "general truth", so maybe I could change "episodic" there to "specific". Again, not great.

English needs more words, dammit!


EDIT: I'm toying with the idea of keeping "gnomic" vs. "episodic" and then using "durative" for the verbal number/aspect. I realize that's a term used to define activities & accomplishments, and not achievements & semelfactives. I found a comment on www.grammaticalfeatures.net about duratives:

grammaticalfeatures.net wrote:Punctual and durative - these refer to situations which are not conceived of as lasting in time (punctual), versus situations which are conceived of as lasting for a certain period of time, however short it may be (durative).

Since I'm allowing for a short burst of achievements/semelfactives (knocking several times), this might be about as good as I'll be able to find. Basically, define it as "a single duration of the event, however long that lasts".

Also perhaps:

• "eventive" - a single event of whatever length
• "singulative" - again, a single event of whatever length. This is a bit odd due to the noun number, but that's not used in this lang, so maybe...

Vardelm wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 4:11 pm

aporaporimos wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 3:54 pmI think this set of aspect terms is fine... as long as you don't also use "episodic" to contrast with "gnomic" for verbs marked / not marked with a direction particle, since that seems to be an orthogonal distinction.

That's the quandary, here. "Episodic" works really well for these aspects, since it's referring to an "episode" of the state, action, or activity. Unfortunately, "episodic" is the exact term used for "not gnomic".

I just checked a thesaurus for "episode" and found "incident", so I could maybe use "incidental". That doesn't seem great.

"Gnomic" is a "general truth", so maybe I could change "episodic" there to "specific". Again, not great.

English needs more words, dammit!


EDIT: I'm toying with the idea of keeping "gnomic" vs. "episodic" and then using "durative" for the verbal number/aspect. I realize that's a term used to define activities & accomplishments, and not achievements & semelfactives. I found a comment on www.grammaticalfeatures.net about duratives:

grammaticalfeatures.net wrote:Punctual and durative - these refer to situations which are not conceived of as lasting in time (punctual), versus situations which are conceived of as lasting for a certain period of time, however short it may be (durative).

Since I'm allowing for a short burst of achievements/semelfactives (knocking several times), this might be about as good as I'll be able to find. Basically, define it as "a single duration of the event, however long that lasts".

Also perhaps:

• "eventive" - a single event of whatever length
• "singulative" - again, a single event of whatever length. This is a bit odd due to the noun number, but that's not used in this lang, so maybe...

"Specific" in contrast to gnomic seems fine, actually. It's not an inflectional category anyways, so it won't show up in glosses, tables, etc, meaning the name you pick isn't as important as the names for the inflectional categories.

Vardelm wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 4:11 pm
Since I'm allowing for a short burst of achievements/semelfactives (knocking several times), this might be about as good as I'll be able to find. Basically, define it as "a single duration of the event, however long that lasts".

Wouldn't that work as a perfective too, or at least as a completive? If so, you could just use one of these labels.

A similar distinction in Iroquoian languages is called coincident. The prefix co- is there because of a bunch of other uses irrelevant here, so let's drop it. I agree with you that incidental sounds a little clumsy, but I think incident would work quite well.

Ars Lande wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 7:03 pmWouldn't that work as a perfective too, or at least as a completive? If so, you could just use one of these labels.

Don't think so, because the verbs are neutral with regards to perfectivity. They can be used for perfective or imperfective meanings.

I considered a lot of possible different labels for "episodic" last night, both for the verbal number aspect and the gnomic vs. episodic distinction. I decided to go with "durative". There was no "perfect" way of labeling everything, so I think this gets as close as possible and allows all of the labels to mostly retain their canonical uses. States, activities, & accomplishments are all naturally durative. Conceiving several semelfactives/ achievements in rapid succession to be 1 event allows that event to be viewed as durative. At the very least, "durative" implies the possibility of more time than "momentane" does.

Last night felt like one of those "Beautiful Mind" moments, where you have string connecting all different post cards on the wall, trying to make the tiniest connection that, in all reality, doesn't really matter. Conlanging is a crazy business.

Moving along....


Dwarven: Verbal Aspects

There are (so far) 4 aspectual particles. Technically, the "verbal numbers" are aspects, but they already are in different category with a different label, so it works.

Retrospective	kæl
Cessative	fjo
Inceptive	chöna
Prospective	myn

• Retrospective = "have verbed"
• Cessative = "stop verbing"
• Inceptive = "start verbing"
• Prospective = "going to verb"

A table is worth a thousand words:

	retrospective	simple	prospective
past	he had walked earlier	he walked earlier	he was going to walk earlier
present	he has walked	he walks	he is going to walk
future	he will have walked later	he will walk later	he is going to walk later

Dwarven is an aspectual language and lacks grammatical tense. Temporal adjuncts and adverbs are used to indicate time. The retrospective (perfect) and prospective aspects could be analyzed as "relative" tense, as is typical of their use in other languages. They are relative to the time of the situation being discussed.

Despite being aspect-based, Dwarven lacks the perfective-imperfective distinction that is common. I think the translations would mostly be imperfective, unless context would call for a perfect for the translation. In Dwarven, one would use the simple (unmarked) form when describing an event. Think of "I walk to the park, and then I sit for a while, etc." The retrospective and prospective are then used as needed to place contextual information in relation to the event being discussed. Dwarven speakers would also use the retrospective when they need to indicate that an event has been completed. "Is he still writing the article? No, he had written that yesterday."

The labels "past" and "future" are just a time reference indicated by the presence or lack of a temporal adjunct or adverb. The "present" simply lacks such. Here I have just used "earlier" and "later" to act as a generic temporal word.

The "simple" aspect is just a lack of either retrospective or prospective aspect particle.

In translations so far, I have been using the present continuous/progressive to distinguish the episodic uses, as defined by the use of a directional particle. That probably works for the most part, but I think a simple present translation might work better most of the time since, at least for me, it's easier to think of the simple present as being neutral regarding perfectivity.

Since I haven't worked out more complex sentence sytnax yet, such as coordinating conjunctions, etc. etc., I'll just give some basic sentences to at least show the particles in place.

Vardelm qis æq fjunayd yñ y jastyr.

Vardelm

Vardelm

qis

upward

æq

CONTROL

fjun-ayd

bake-SNG.EPI

yñ

ABS

y

DEF.SNG

jastyr

bread

"Vardelm bakes up the bread."


Vardelm kæl qis æq fjunayd yñ y jastyr.

Vardelm

Vardelm

kæl

RET

qis

upward

æq

CONTROL

fjun-ayd

bake-SNG.EPI

yñ

ABS

y

DEF.SNG

jastyr

bread

"Vardelm has baked up the bread."


Vardelm myn qis æq fjunayd yñ y jastyr.

Vardelm

Vardelm

myn

PRO

qis

upward

æq

CONTROL

fjun-ayd

bake-SNG.EPI

yñ

ABS

y

DEF.SNG

jastyr

bread

"Vardelm is going to bake up the bread."


Vardelm chöna qis æq fjunayd yñ y jastyr.

Vardelm

Vardelm

chöna

INC

qis

upward

æq

CONTROL

fjun-ayd

bake-SNG.EPI

yñ

ABS

y

DEF.SNG

jastyr

bread

"Vardelm started to bake up the bread."


Vardelm fjo qis æq fjunayd yñ y jastyr.

Vardelm

Vardelm

fjo

CES

qis

upward

æq

CONTROL

fjun-ayd

bake-SNG.EPI

yñ

ABS

y

DEF.SNG

jastyr

bread

"Vardelm stopped baking up the bread."

For today, I'm tossing up the little bit I have on pronouns since it's easy. I don't have anything yet on reflexive, interrogative, etc. pronouns, not even thoughts.

Dwarven: Personal Pronouns

	Singular	Plural
1st Person	mi	exclusive: mæn inclusive: maðyn
2nd Person	ðy	ushæd
Proximal	vja	vyð
Medial	davu	davyn
Distal	kjova	kjovyn

Noteworthy notes:

• 1st person plural has an exclusive vs. inclusive distinction.
• 3rd person doesn't use "true" personal pronouns, but rather demonstratives with a proximal, medial, & distal distinction.
• At least for now, pronouns will also use the same particles for case that nouns use. I'm considering having pronoun inflect for case, but with 14 cases that seems like overkill. Right now the language inflects only for number and I think I like that. On the other hand, maybe this is a chance for "inflected case markers" instead of the inflected prepositions of Gaelic languages.

mi tjar yñ uljegayd sæf vja ðjodaim.

mi

I

tjar

via

yñ

AFFECT

uljeg-ayd

read-SNG.DUR

sæf

at.PRO

vja

this.DET.PROX

ðjodaim

morning

"I am reading this morning."


ushæd ðaið mjedoil.

ushæd

you.PLR

ðaið

are.PLR.DUR

mjedoil

smart

"You (all) are smart."

• Just thinking here quick that an iterative or habitual for ða "to be" might have some interesting uses. Maybe it's a sort of emphatic, like "wow, you're smart, and you actually demonstrate that over & over".

davyn glöq chæmið öch y filnjåd

davyn

those.MED.PLR

glöq

downhill

chæm-ið

walk-PLR.DUR

öch

toward.LAT

y

the.SNG

filnjåd

park

"Those (they) are walking downhill towards the park."


Finally, a bit of sappiness for your morning:

mi yñ gjovayd nyð ðy.

mi

I

yñ

AFFECT

gjov-ayd

love-SNG.DURI

nyð

with.INST

ðy

you.SNG

"I love you." (Surely stated by a young dwarf lass to her mining pick, not to some dwarf lad hoping to gain her affections.)

Dwarven: Relative Clauses

There are 7 different relativizers, used in different types of relative clauses:

Relativizer	Relativized element is:
sey	subject of the relative clause
dja	subject of the relative clause and the verb of that clause is ða "to be"
ma	not the subject of the relative clause; is one of the adjuncts
hoi	antecedent is 1st or 2nd person singular & relativized element is a genitival
hun	antecedent is 1st or 2nd person plural & relativized element is a genitival
hæv	antecedent is 3rd person (demonstrative) singular & relativized element is a genitival
hayn	antecedent is 3rd person (demonstrative) plural & relativized element is a genitival

Relative clauses have 2 possible word orders. V2 is probably a bit more common, and V-final is not uncommon. For V-final, the "verb complement noun phrase) is counted as part of the verb phrase, but I list it here for clarity.

V2 order: Relativizer + (Subject noun phrase) + Verb phrase + (Verb complement noun phrase) + adjuncts

V-final order: Relativizer + (Subject noun phrase) + adjuncts + Verb phrase + (Verb complement noun phrase)


V2 is generally used with the subject of the main sentence or with the final adjunct of the main sentence since it would be at the end. V-final is most often used with adjunct noun phrases in the middle of the main sentence because the verb of the relative clause marks the end of the relative clause, allowing additional adjunct noun phrases to appear in the main sentence without confusion as to whether they are part of the relative clause. Context can provide clarity, of course, so the 2 orders can be freely interchanged.

Examples:

jastyr qis yñ fjunayd hu y qjuralg sey shyna e ny filnjåd fjorma chæmayd e ny ðjodaim.

jastyr

bread

qis

upward

yñ

AFFECT

fjun-ayd

bake-SNG.EPI

hu

of.GEN

ny

the.SNG

qjuralg

warrior

sey

REL

shyna

in

e

at.LOC

ny

the.SNG

filnjåd

park

fjorma

around.DIR

chæm-ayd

walks-SNG.EPI

e

at.LOC

ny

the.SNG

ðjodaim

morning

"The bread was being baked up (this morning) by the warrior that walked around in the park."



------------------------------

Ugh. Too much night left at the end of my mental endurance for today. Hopefully edit this to get some more examples up in the coming days.

I'm rewriting the above post. As mentioned, I want to add a bit more info, but I also want to try a slightly different presentation format I've been thinking of. The format would strictly have either a chart or sample sentences, and then explain those with bullet points to follow. The idea is to keep things as brief as possible. I value brevity, but often barf out way more words than is needed (as can maybe be seen just from this "short" intro... ) So here we go.


Dwarven: Relative Clauses Redux

Relativizers

Relativizer	In relative clause:
sey	antecedant = subject
dja	antecedant = subject, verb is ða "to be"
ma	antecedant = adjunct
hoi	1st/2nd person singular antecedent, subject = genitival
hun	1st/2nd person plural antecedent, subject = genitival
hæv	3rd person (demonstrative) singular antecedent, subject = genitival
hayn	3rd person (demonstrative) plural antecedent, subject = genitival

Word Order

y ðalgöch hæv roqma ðayd mjurav ushin voi pjoða y the.SNG ðalgöch miner hæv whose.REL.3P.SNG roqma brother ða-yd is-DUR.SNG mjurav dead ushin event.PREP voi from.ABL pjoða year the miner whose brother has been dead for a year y ðalgöch hæv roqma ushin voi pjoða ðayd mjurav y the.SNG ðalgöch miner hæv whose.REL.3P.SNG roqma brother ushin event.PREP voi from.ABL pjoða year ða-yd is-DUR.SNG mjurav dead the miner whose brother has been dead for a year

• Word orders:
  • Verb-Adjunct (V-A): Relativizer + (Subject noun phrase) + Verb phrase + (Verb complement phrase) + adjuncts
  • Adjunct-Verb (A-V): Relativizer + (Subject noun phrase) + adjuncts + Verb phrase + (Verb complement phrase)
• Occurence:
  • V-A is a bit more common than A-V
  • V-A used more for main clause subject or for adjuncts at end of main clause
  • A-V used more for adjuncts not at end of main clause
  • Orders can be interchanged since context can provide clarity

Examples per relativizer

y ðalgöch sey lom kürsayd lah y lumaich y the.SNG ðalgöch miner sey that lom in(to) kürs-ayd enter-DUR.SNG lah to.TER y the.SNG lumaich cave the miner that entered the cave y ðalgöch sey lah y lumaich lom kürsayd y the.SNG ðalgöch miner sey that lah to.TER y the.SNG lumaich cave lom in(to) kürs-ayd enter-DUR.SNG the miner that entered the cave

• Sey used since ðalgöch "miner" is the subject of lom kürsayd "enter into"

y ðalgöch dja ðayd mjurav y the.SNG ðalgöch miner dja that ða-yd is-DUR.SNG mjurav dead the miner that is dead

• Dja used because ðalgöch "miner" is the subject and the verb is ða "to be"

y ðalgöch ma ny lumaich lom lah kürsayd yñ vja y the.SNG ðalgöch miner ma that ny the.SNG lumaich cave lom in(to) lah to.TER kürs-ayd enter-DUR.SNG yñ ABS vja this(him).SNG the miner that the cave was entered-into by him

• Ma used because ðalgöch "miner" is referenced by vja "this/him" as an adjunct
• Vja is a resumptive pronoun referring to ðalgöch "miner"
• No A-V order is used because resumptive pronouns always appear in final position of relative clause

ðy hoi lauchið ðayd fysk e ny vjoña ðy you.SNG hoi whose.SNG lauchið home ða-yd is-DUR.SNG fysk near e at.LOC ny the.SNG vjoña river you whose home is near the river ðy hoi lauchið ðayd fysk e ny vjoña ðy you.SNG hoi whose.SNG lauchið home ða-yd is-DUR.SNG fysk near e at.LOC ny the.SNG vjoña river you whose home is near the river

• Hoi used since subject is 2nd person singular, relative clause subject is genitival

mæn hun shynðary ðaið mjurav mæn we.PLR.EXC hun whose.PLR shynða-ry parent-PLR ða-ið are-DUR.PLR mjurav dead we whose parents are dead

• Hun used since subject is 1st person plural, relative clause subject is genitival

y qjuralg hæv vjorkad hål nyð dymjurvayð yñ y kyr y the.SNG qjuralg warrior hæv whose.SNG vjorkad axe hål down nyð with.INS dymjurv-ayð kill-DUR.SNG yñ ABS y the.SNG kyr king the warrior whose axe with-killed the king y qjuralg hæv vjorkad hål yñ y ky nyð dymjurvayðr y the.SNG qjuralg warrior hæv whose.SNG vjorkad axe yñ ABS y the.SNG kyr king hål down nyð with.INS dymjurv-ayð kill-DUR.SNG the warrior whose axe with-killed the king

• Hæv used since subject is 3rd person singular, relative clause subject is genitival
• Vjorkad hål nyð dymjurvayð shows that voices are used in relative clauses just like main clauses

yr ðalgöchry hayn rifjæn ðayd lom e ny lumaich yr the.PLR ðalgöchry miner.PLR hayn whose.PLR rifjæn fellow/companion ða-yd is-DUR.SNG lom in e at.LOC ny the.SNG lumaich cave the miners whose fellow/companion is in the cave

• Hayn used since subject is 3rd person plural, relative clause subject is genitival

Full sentence example(s)

jastyr qis yñ fjunayd hu y qjuralg sey shyna e ny filnjåd fjorma chæmayd e ny ðjodaim. jastyr bread qis upward yñ AFFECT fjun-ayd bake-SNG.EPI hu of.GEN ny the.SNG qjuralg warrior sey REL shyna in e at.LOC ny the.SNG filnjåd park fjorma around.DIR chæm-ayd walks-SNG.EPI e at.LOC ny the.SNG ðjodaim morning "The bread was being baked up (this morning) by the warrior that walked around in the park."

• Sey shyna e ny filnjåd fjorma chæmayd appears in A-V order because e ny ðjodaim "in the park" appears after. Using verb-final order shows where the relative clause ends & adjuncts for the main verb resume

------------------------------

There's lots of death and killing in those examples. Conlanging is a melodramatic business.

Dwarven: Genitives

Genitive constructions are just shortened or reduced relative phrases. I'm using the term "genitive" very broadly. It includes the usual possession/ownership, but I'm also including nouns modified by a prepositional phrase, such as "the fountain in the park".

y vjorkad dja ðayd hu ny qjuralg y the.SNG vjorkad axe dja that ða-yd is-DUR.SNG hu GEN ny the.SNG qjuralg warrior the axe that is of the warrior

• This is a complete relative phrase, shown as a starting point

y vjorkad dja hu ny qjuralg y the.SNG vjorkad axe dja that hu GEN ny the.SNG qjuralg warrior the axe that is of the warrior

• ðayd may be removed from the phrase, leaving the relativizer dja to show the phrases are connected
• ðayd is the only verb that is removed in this manner
• dja is the relativizer used with ða "to be", which helps indicate the connection

y vjorkad hu ny qjuralg y the.SNG vjorkad axe hu GEN ny the.SNG qjuralg warrior the axe that is of the warrior

• The relitivizer dja may be removed from the phrase as well, leaving only the noun phrase with the case particle to show the relationship
• Phrases are normally spoken with a slight hiatus between them. Genitive constructions don't have that hiatus; it's like 1 phrase
• If context will not be clear, the speaker can always revert to one of the above constructions (just using dja is usually enough).

"Genitives" with other cases

y qjuralg nyð vjorkad y the.SNG qjuralg warrior nyð INS vjorkad axe the warrior with an axe the warrior that has an axe

• The instrumental can be used as the "inverse" of the genitive, indicating the head noun has something, rather than the head noun is owned by something

y qjuralg an y tunych y the.SNG qjuralg warrior an INI y the.SNG tunych north the warrior from the north

• The initiative shows where someone/something originated from

------------

Looking at this now, I might go back and revise my noun cases a little bit. I have a hard time seeing some of the noun cases used in this manner, and right now that seems like cases that indicate a steady state would be more likely to be used this way. I also think that "steady state" might be a good way of looking at why they would be used for telic statements; they connote the resulting state of the action. Because of that, I might make some changes like switching the genitive & ergative cases in terms of which one is telic vs atelic.

Dwarven: Adjectives & Adverbs

y ðalgöch liŋåv njasho y the.SNG ðalgöch miner liŋåv very njasho old the very old miner yr ðalgöchry liŋåv njashon yr the.PLR ðalgöch-ry miner-PLR liŋåv very njasho-n old-PLR the very old miners

• Adjectives follow the nouns they modify
• Adjective qualifiers (very, more, etc.) come before the adjective
• Adjectives have plural form ( -(y)n suffix) to agree with nouns that are in the dual, paucal, or plural numbers
• In the future I'll add a few more plural forms, and some adjectives won't take plural forms at all

chæmayd liŋåv kjælship chæm-ayd run-DUR.SNG liŋåv very kjælship fast runs very fast chæmayd liŋåv kjælship chæm-aið run-DUR.PLR liŋåv very kjælship fast runs very fast

• Likewise, adverbs follow the verbs they modify
• Adverb qualifiers (very, more, etc.) come before the adverb
• Adverbs do NOT inflect for number

Full sentence example:

yr ðalgöchry njashon nyð tachry shybaryn mögæch chaemaið dachys an yr lumaichry yr the.PLR ðalgöch-ry miner-PLR njasho-n old-PLR nyð with.INS tach-ry pick-PLR shybary-n broken-PLR mögæch out chaema-ið walk-DUR.PLR dachys slowly an INI yr the.PLR lumaich-ry cave-PLR The old miners with broken picks slowly walked out from the caves.

Time to start posting about other languages a little! I posted about Devani quite a bit in my scratchpad on the old board, but since then I've been doing a major rework on it, mostly in terms of phonology & making it more synthetic to agglutinative instead of isolating.


Devani Phonology


Consonants: IPA

	Labial	Coronal	Dorsal	Gutteral
Stops	p b	t̪ d̪ ʈ ɖ	t͡ɕ d͡ʒ k g
Fricatives		θ s ʂ	ɕ	h
Nasals	m	n̪ ɳ
Continuants	ʋ	ɹ~ɾ̥ ɭ	j

Consonants: Orthography

	Labial	Coronal	Dorsal	Gutteral
Stops	p b	t d ŧ đ	ch j k g
Fricatives		th s š	sh	h
Nasals	m	n ň
Continuants	v	r l	j

• / ɹ ɾ̥ / in free distribution
• Yes, I have /θ/ in this language as well as Dwarvish. Yes, I realize it's a rare phone. Tough. My 'lang, my rules. My other 2 'langs in this series won't have it, so it's not completely unreasonable.

Vowels

	Front	Mid	Back
Closed	i		u
Mid	e		o
Open		a

• Not sure what I'm doing yet for diphthongs.

Syllables

• maximally CCVC
  • Onset clusters
    • Initial syllables
      • stop + fricative
      • stop + nasal
      • stop + continuant
      • fricative + nasal
      • fricative + continuant
      • nasal + continuant
      • /ʋ/ + /ɹ ɾ̥ j/
    • Medial & final syllables
    • stop + continuant
    • fricative + continuant
    • nasal + continuant
    • /ʋ/ + / ɹ~ɾ̥ j /
  • Onset restrictions
    
    • no non-retroflex + retroflex
    • no retroflex + non-retroflex
    • no /h/ in 2nd onset position

Stress

• Final syllable in 2 syllable words where 1st syllable is open and 2nd syllable is closed
• Penultimate everywhere else

Devani Verbs Conjugation

Here's a 1st crack at verb conjugation.

Notes:

• Verbs are primarily split between realis & irrealis
  
  • Realis is the lemme, and is conjugated by suffixes
  • The irrealis stem is formed via reduplicated infix, and is then conjugated with prefixes and suffixes.
• There are volitional & non-volitional endings. I'm starting w/ just volitional.
• 1st, 2nd, & 3rd person. No plural, no gender. These are merged w/ volitionality & evidence.
• Evidentials are:
  
  • EGO = egophoric
  • VIS = visual
  • NVI = non-visual sensory
  • REP = reported
  • DIR = inference by direct evidence
  • IND = inference by indirect evidence

Realis

	EGO	VIS	NVI	REP	DIR	IND
1P	-am	-ve	-vu	-tiv	-mah	-mis
2P	-a	-e	-u	-anti	-lam	-ison
3P	-vah	-ire	-alu	-i	-lu	-is

Irrealis

Stem is formed by reduplicating the 1st consonant of the onset in the stressed syllable & placing after the vowel of that syllable.

	EGO	VIS	NVI	REP	DIR	IND
1P	-a	a- -e	a- -u	a- -anti	mu- lam	mu- -ison
2P	m- -a	v- -e	v- -u	v- -anti	ha- -lam	ha- -ison
3P	m- -vah	v- -ire	v- -alu	v- -i	ha- -lu	ha- -is

Example verb: tiprash "to do something that hasn't been defined yet"

Realis

	EGO	VIS	NVI	REP	DIR	IND
1P	tiprasham	tiprashve	tiprashvu	tiprashtiv	tiprashmah	tiprashmis
2P	tiprasha	tiprashe	tiprashu	tiprashanti	tiprashlam	tiprashison
3P	tiprashvah	tiprashire	tiprashalu	tiprashi	tiprashlu	tiprashis

Irrealis

Stem: tiprapsh-

	EGO	VIS	NVI	REP	DIR	IND
1P	tiprapsha	atiprapshe	atiprapshu	atiprapshanti	mutiprapshalam	mutiprapshison
2P	mitprapsha	vitprapshe	vitprapshu	vitprapshanti	hatiprapshalam	hatiprapshison
3P	mitprapshavah	vitprapshire	vitprapshalu	vitprapshi	hatiprapshalu	hatiprapshis

I would have guessed that NVI and DIR might derive from the same, or similar roots...or, that they merge at some point given the syntactical-semantic equivalence. However, I think having them be distinct can lend itself to some nuance in discourse and perhaps layered prosody.

EDIT: Also, I'm jelly at the tables/charts. I've yet to fiddle with them...so, kudos.

After some further review, me thinks I need to add some syncretism to at least a few of the fields. I found & save Whimemsz's old thread on polysynthesis and noted the post where he talked about polysynthetic langs being just as "messy" as other langs. Good timing! I think this conlang will not be (or even was not IIRC from the old board) pro-drop for the most part. I'd like to maybe just have 1st person be pro-drop for a few cases, especially the egophoric evidential.

Also, I think the general feel of the conjugations is in the ball park for what I want, but needs more tweaking.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:14 am I would have guessed that NVI and DIR might derive from the same, or similar roots...or, that they merge at some point given the syntactical-semantic equivalence. However, I think having them be distinct can lend itself to some nuance in discourse and perhaps layered prosody.

That makes sense, and I rather like the idea of them diverging. I need to go back & revisit the evidentials since I pulled these straight from the version on the old forum. It's been about 4 years (!!!!) since I posted the initial version there, so I don't exactly recall the distinctions.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:14 am EDIT: Also, I'm jelly at the tables/charts. I've yet to fiddle with them...so, kudos.

I assume you mean technically, so yeah, they're a bit of a pain in the arse. I find it easier to write the text for a row, add the cell tags, then the row tags, do the next row, etc., and add the table tag at the end. Adding spaces & returns to keep things organized helps a ton. It's still tedious since it's not WYSIWYG.

In case you mean creatively, then "thanks!" and "that makes me happy!" I mapped out what inflections I wanted about 2 years ago, and for about a year I've been trying to decide how I wanted to handle the realis vs. irrealis stems. Seeing chris_nott's Pñæk conlang and Ars Lande's recent work on Kangrim / Old Hieratic Tarandim finally got me over that mental quagmire. Kudos to them for the inspiration.

For tables, I've sometimes resorted to using zompist's phono tool and removing extra rows/columns as needed.

One thing that is not entirely clear: how do the irrealis and evidential combine?

Ars Lande wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:25 pm One thing that is not entirely clear: how do the irrealis and evidential combine?

.... ....

In putting this together, I completely neglected a chart I put together for myself that addresses that very question (and was on the old board, too)! Derp.

The egophoric, visual, and non-visual evidentials use the realis stem for past & present, and the irrealis stem for future. Meanwhile, the reportative, direct, & indirect inferentials use the irrealis stem full time, which is past vs. non-past tense. (Yep, split-tense system.) I'm thinking about moving the reportative to the realis/non-future group.

This chart was intended to mostly be an early draft focusing on the morphology. I will definitely be going back and change some of the affixes as there's some I don't particularly like. That will include writing some posts that specifically break down the realis vs irrealis uses, evidential uses, and more.

Thanks for the observation! This means there's actually less affixes that I need to make that what I thought!

Jin: Phonology

I've been tinkering with another conlang I posted on the old board: Jin. The phonology is largely the same as it was then, but I've made a couple changes to make the syntax much simpler to explain & understand.

Consonants: IPA

	Labial	Coronal	Lateral	Palatal	Dorsal	Gutteral
Clicks		ǀ ǀʼ nǀ nǀ’	ǁ ǁʼ nǁ nǁ’	ǂ ǂʼ nǂ nǂ’
Stops	p b mp mb	t d tʼ nt nd ntʼ			k g kʼ ŋk ŋg ŋkʼ	q qʼ ɴq ɴqʼ
Affricates				tʃ dʒ tʃ’ ɲtʃ ɲdʒ ɲtʃ’
Fricatives		s z ns nz		ʃ ʒ ɲʃ ɲʒ		h
Nasals	m	n		ɲ
Continuants			l	j	w

Consonants: Orthography

	Labial	Coronal	Lateral	Palatal	Dorsal	Gutteral
Clicks		!t !t’ !nt !nt’	!l !l’ !nl !nl’	!c !c’ !nc !nc’
Stops	p b mp mb	t d t' nt nd nt'			k g k’ ñk ñg ñk’	q q’ ñq ñq’
Affricates				c j c’ ñc ñj ñc’
Fricatives		s z ns nz		sh zh ñsh ñzh		h
Nasals	m	n		ñ
Continuants			l	y	w

Vowels: IPA

	Front	Mid	Back
Closed	i		u
Mid
Open		a

Tone Registers

• Tones: low, high
• Phonations: modal, murmured/breathy, creaky

Tone Register	Abbreviation	Orthography	Tone + Phonation
High	H	î â û	high tone, murmured phonation
Raised	R	í á ú	high tone, modal
Middle (default)	M	i a u	low tone, modal
Low	L	ï ä ü	low tone, creaky phonation

Notes:

• Raised & high tones rise at the start of a sentence.
• Low tone falls at the start of a sentence.

Tone Melodies: Restrictions

• Low can’t follow high; low after a high is changed to mid
  • HL → HM
• High can’t follow low; high after a low is changed to raised
  • LH → LR

Syllable Structure

• Technically, syllable structure is (C)V(C)
• In practice, it’s almost exclusively CV
  • Initial syllables can omit the onset consonant
  • Final syllables of a word can have a coda consonant
  • Certain clitics might a coda consonant
• Onsets: All consonants are allowed as onsets
• Codas: Clicks and < y w > are not allowed in coda

Jin: Word Order

Stative Verbs:

mishati t’anji mishati thirsty t’anji 1P.STA I am thirsty.

wani t’anji saqûmbu wani see t’anji 1P.STA saqûmbu 2P.ACT I see you.

Active Verbs:

buch’ad qasim buch’ad run qasim 3P.ACT He runs.

wamula qasim sundiwa wamula blame qasim 3P.ACT sundiwa 2P.STA He blames you.

Notes:

• Verbs roots are either active or stative by default
  • Voice/valency suffixes can be added to conjugate/derive a new stem that switches active vs. stative
  • Verb arguments are either active or stative as well, as defined by their head noun or determiner
  • The verb & it's voice/valency determine which type of arguments are used
• For word orders below:
  • S = active argument (more agentive: think nominative/ergative)
  • O = stative argument (more patientive: think accusative/absolutive)
• Word orders:
  • Stative intransitive verb: VO
  • Stative transitive verb: VOS
  • Active intransitive verb: VS
  • Active transitive verb: VSO

I have no shame in telling you that some of this will end up in Kala's grammar, which I'm in the process of rewriting.

Specifically the active/stative bits.