Zompist Bboard Again

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:03 pm 1) Chain shift of long and short vowels to short and reduced
1.1) Reduced vowels become semivowels before other vowels
1.2) Reduced vowels merge to schwa / schwi (only distinct word-initially) and are deleted when phonotactics permit, becoming epenthetic otherwise
1.3) Stress shift away from reduced vowels
2) rj > ʒ
3) Final d > n
4) e o > ɛi ɔu > ai ɑu, ɪ ʏ ʊ > e ø o
5) Further orthographic regularization

[ɨ̆ppɛˈʒɛs wɑu nøw ə̆tˈtɔrə̆n]
[bain e vi wɔʴn bɛʴ riç ɨ̆ˈnə̆h də̆ mai]
[də̆ pɛç ɔ wɑu wɑ ji je mə̆ˈʒɛn]
[fɔʴ lə̆ʴˈðeɣ, si jə̆ ðwɜ jɛʴ bain ɑu ɛn]

Eppairiais, wou neuw attauran
Bein y wie woarn, ber righ enagh ta mei
Ta paigh au wou wae i y mariain
Foar lardyg, si ya thwai yair bein ou ain

(1) Deletion of unstressed reduced vowels in syllables preceding fully realised vowels, unless this will create an illegal consonant cluster;
(1.1) Initial geminates that would be produced in this way are reduced to a single consonant;
(1.2) Unstressed words may end up prefixed onto what follows;
(2) Remaining unstressed vowels assimilate to the full realisation of the one that follows or precedes;
(2.1) Remaining stressed [ə̆] merges with [ø], being then caught in a chain shift [ø] > [e]
(3) Postvocalic velar and uvular fricatives become semiconsonants assimilated to the preceding vowel
(3.1) Front rhotic vowels are lowered, [ɛʴ], [eʴ] > [ɑʴ]
(3.2) Rhotic vowels become long vowels.
(3.3) [ɑu] merges with [ɑː], [aj], [ɛj], [ej] and [e] merge to [eː]
(3.4) [ɔː], [wɜ] and [ɔ] merge to [ɔː]
(4.) Fashionable orthographic reform to look more like Dutch owing to an Orangist movement, reclassicalisation of some words;
(4.1) Some plural analogicalisation too; "eeuwdee" (cognate to "elder") is borrowed from a dialect to replace "ee" ("age").

Espezjestja wa neeuw otorontee
Been ei wie worn, ba rij nee t'mee
T'pei oo war wa ji jee mezjee
For laatheen, si ithwoo jar been ar eeuwdee

[ɛspɛˈʒɛstjɑ wɑː neːw ɔtɔrɔnteː]
[beːn eː vi wɔʴn bɑː rij neː dmeː]
[tpɛj ɔː wɑː wɑ ji jeː mɛˈʒeː]
[fɔː lɑːˈðeː, si iðwɔː jɑː beːn ɑː eudeː]

How many years would have passed between middle English
and this realisticallyy?

I hadn't thought about it. It's maybe parallel to about the 1700s, I think, so probably a near-modern form of the language?

Thanks.

Next one dhould be Old Chinese or PIE?

I'm contented with keeping on with the one we have — it probably has another shift or two in it.

I know. Judt asking in advance.

Old Chinese will be different. Some orthography with it will be useful, too.

I like the idea of doing Old Chinese. It’ll be interesting. (I expect Nortaneous will have fun with it too.)

He appears to like to do some very extreme sound changes.

Not yet. Work on English until next page and then we gonna have Old Chinese

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:01 pm Espezjestja wa neeuw otorontee
Been ei wie worn, ba rij nee t'mee
T'pei oo war wa ji jee mezjee
For laatheen, si ithwoo jar been ar eeuwdee

1) ð > d
2) cluster MOA assimilation (dm > nm)
3) replacement of eː 'in' with esi < 'inside' (how did the two occurrences split? apparently my fault)
4) palatalization of /s z t d/
5) ɑː > ɛː, e(:)w > y(ː), postalveolars (allophonically rounded as in English) round preceding vowels (isn't this attested in some German dialects?) but this is suppressed in classical words, œ > ø, w > g
6) ij > iː

[ɛspeˈʒeʃtʃɑ gɛː nyː ɔtɔrɔnˈteː]
[beːn øˈʃi vi gɔːn bɛː riː neː nmeː]
[tpɛj ɔː gɛː gɑ ji øˈʃi møˈʒeː]
[fɔː lɛːˈdeː, ʃi i dgɔː jɛː beːn ɛː yˈdeː]

Espezjestja gaa neeuw otorontee
Been eusi wie gorn, baa rie nee n'mee
T'pei oo gaa ga jie eusi meuzjee
For laathee, si ie dgoo jaa been aa eeuwdee

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:20 pm 1) ð > d
2) cluster MOA assimilation (dm > nm)
3) replacement of eː 'in' with esi < 'inside' (how did the two occurrences split? apparently my fault)
4) palatalization of /s z t d/
5) ɑː > ɛː, e(:)w > y(ː), postalveolars (allophonically rounded as in English) round preceding vowels (isn't this attested in some German dialects?) but this is suppressed in classical words, œ > ø, w > g
6) ij > iː

[ɛspeˈʒeʃtʃɑ gɛː nyː ɔtɔrɔnˈteː]
[beːn øˈʃi vi gɔːn bɛː riː neː nmeː]
[tpɛj ɔː gɛː gɑ ji øˈʃi møˈʒeː]
[fɔː lɛːˈdeː, ʃi i dgɔː jɛː beːn ɛː yˈdeː]

Espezjestja gaa neeuw otorontee
Been eusi wie gorn, baa rie nee n'mee
T'pei oo gaa ga jie eusi meuzjee
For laathee, si ie dgoo jaa been aa eeuwdee

1) [ɛj] merges into [ɛː], followed by the breaking of long vowels: [ɛː] > [ɛɑ], [eː] > [ie], [yː] > [ey], [iː] > [ei], [ɔː] > [ue]
2) Depalatalisation of [ʃ tʃ ʒ dʒ] > [s ts d dz], blocked by following [br]i j[/br]
2.1) Initial [j] > [ʒ]
2.2.) Palatalisation of the velars [k g] > [tʃ dʒ] before front vowels.
3.) Derounding of [ø y] to [e i], but [y] > [br]u[/br] as the second element in a diphthong
3.1) [v] > [w]
4.) Vogue for classicalisation intensifies and furher alters the shapes of some words; use of -eer for [ɛɑ] by analogy with historical spellings, in which there is new interest; "sc" for [ʃ] from Ecclesiastical Latin; these reforms are resisted in some circles at first, but come to be taught in spite of public dissent, later being the form of language most resistant to reform.

It probably also needs a name. Anybody care to run the word "English" through all those changes?

Esperentja geer neeuw autoritaas
Bien esci wich guuen, beer reich nie n'mie
T'peer wee geer ga gi esci megie
Fuer leerdien sci d'gue Eer geer bien eer idie

[ɛspeˈrentjɑ dʒɛɑ neu autɔriˈtaːs]
[bien eˈʃi wiː guen bɛɑ rei nie nmie]
[tpɛa weː dʒɛa gɑ ʒi eˈʃi meˈʒie]
[fue lɛɑˈdien, ʃi i dgue ɛa ʒɛa bien ɛa iˈdie]

I think it came out rather pretty — just the right enough unique sound changes, copying other languages' orthographies, and importing classical vocabulary to make it Anglic, but not English. Anybody want another stage to take it to the point where people will complain about its deterioration, or are we happy here?

(Edit: Added in "eer", a stressed form of the first-person singular pronoun, which seems to have been elided out along the way.)

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:26 pm Esperentja geer neeuw autoritaas
Bien esci wich guuen, beer reich nie n'mie
T'peer wee geer ga gi esci megie
Fuer leerdien sci d'gue Eer geer bien eer idie

[ɛspeˈrentjɑ dʒɛɑ neu autɔriˈtaːs]
[bien eˈʃi wiː guen bɛɑ rei nie nmie]
[tpɛa weː dʒɛa gɑ ʒi eˈʃi meˈʒie]
[fue lɛɑˈdien, ʃi i dgue ɛa ʒɛa bien ɛa iˈdie]

I think it came out rather pretty — just the right enough unique sound changes, copying other languages' orthographies, and importing classical vocabulary to make it Anglic, but not English. Anybody want another stage to take it to the point where people will complain about its deterioration, or are we happy here?

(Edit: Added in "eer", a stressed form of the first-person singular pronoun, which seems to have been elided out along the way.)

Yeah, I like how it looks now; anything much more would spoil it. (Someone should develop this into a conlang, actually.) Let’s start on Old Chinese:

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:03 pm [kˤem kˤra tsʰˤn tsʰˤn
bˤrak prˤaks gʷaj sraŋ
sqʰraʔ gʷəts ʔij niŋ
dzˤəʔ sturʔ ʔit paŋ

sŋˤaks gʷˤəj dzoɳ tə
kəlˤuʔ tsraʔ tsʰaʔ ntraɳ
sŋˤaks nru dzoŋ tə
ʔorʔ dzˤəʔ sturʔ truŋ ʔaŋ]

1. Syllabic consonants after pharyngeals get a supporting vowel [ɑ], causing a shift [æ] → [ɑ].
2. Vowel breaking: V{n,ɲ} → Vj{n,ɲ}, Vɳ → ˤVɳ, Vŋ → Vwŋ, but {i,u}{n,ɳ,ɲ,ŋ} → {i,u}ə{n,ɳ,ɲ,ŋ}
3. Pharyngeals turn into vowel affectation: ˤi ˤə ˤu ˤe ˤo ˤæ ˤɑ → ɪ ɜ ʊ ɜ ɔ ɑ ɑ. (I’m not quite sure if there’s any difference between e.g. [bˤr] and [prˤ] here; for now I’m treating them both the same unless someone informs me otherwise.)
4. Vowels of minor syllables delete.

(5. Time-travelling linguists with an alternate universe machine create a romanisation.)

kèm krà tshàn tshàn
bràk pràks gway sraŋ
sqhraʔ gwəts ʔiy niŋ
dzə̀ʔ sturʔ ʔit paŋ

sŋàks gwə̀y dzòrn tə
klùʔ tsraʔ tshaʔ ntràrn
sŋàks nru dzoŋ tə
ʔorʔ dzə̀ʔ sturʔ truŋ ʔaŋ

[kɛm krɑ tsʰɑjn tsʰɑjn
brɑk prɑks gʷæj sræwŋ
sqʰræʔ gʷəts ʔij niəŋ
dzɜʔ sturʔ ʔit pæwŋ

sŋɑks gʷɜj dzɔɳ tə
klʊʔ tsræʔ tsʰæʔ ntrɑɳ
sŋɑks nru dzowŋ tə
ʔorʔ dzɜʔ sturʔ truəŋ ʔæwŋ]

EDIT: Fixed rule 2

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:16 am Yeah, I like how it looks now; anything much more would spoil it. (Someone should develop this into a conlang, actually.) Let’s start on Old Chinese:

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:03 pm [kˤem kˤra tsʰˤn tsʰˤn
bˤrak prˤaks gʷaj sraŋ
sqʰraʔ gʷəts ʔij niŋ
dzˤəʔ sturʔ ʔit paŋ

sŋˤaks gʷˤəj dzoɳ tə
kəlˤuʔ tsraʔ tsʰaʔ ntraɳ
sŋˤaks nru dzoŋ tə
ʔorʔ dzˤəʔ sturʔ truŋ ʔaŋ]

1. Syllabic consonants after pharyngeals get a supporting vowel [ɑ], causing a shift [æ] → [ɑ].
2. Vowel breaking: V{n,ɲ} → Vj{n,ɲ}, Vɳ → ˤVɳ, Vŋ → Vwŋ, but {i,u}{n,ɳ,ɲ,ŋ} → {i,u}ə{n,ɳ,ɲ,ŋ}
3. Pharyngeals turn into vowel affectation: ˤi ˤə ˤu ˤe ˤo ˤæ ˤɑ → ɪ ɜ ʊ ɜ ɔ ɑ ɑ. (I’m not quite sure if there’s any difference between e.g. [bˤr] and [prˤ] here; for now I’m treating them both the same unless someone informs me otherwise.)
4. Vowels of minor syllables delete.

(5. Time-travelling linguists with an alternate universe machine create a romanisation.)

kèm krà tshàn tshàn
bràk pràks gway sraŋ
sqhraʔ gwəts ʔiy niŋ
dzə̀ʔ sturʔ ʔit paŋ

sŋàks gwə̀y dzòrn tə
klùʔ tsraʔ tshaʔ ntràrn
sŋàks nru dzoŋ tə
ʔorʔ dzə̀ʔ sturʔ truŋ ʔaŋ

[kɛm krɑ tsʰɑjn tsʰɑjn
brɑk prɑks gʷæj sræwŋ
sqʰræʔ gʷəts ʔij niəŋ
dzɜʔ sturʔ ʔit pæwŋ

sŋɑks gʷɜj dzɔɳ tə
klʊʔ tsræʔ tsʰæʔ ntrɑɳ
sŋɑks nru dzowŋ tə
ʔorʔ dzɜʔ sturʔ truəŋ ʔæwŋ]

EDIT: Fixed rule 2

(1) First, we can smooth out the diphthongs a bit: [ɑj ɛj ɜj] > [ɛː], [æj] > [eː], [wə] > [uə] > [uː], [iə ij] > [iː], [æw] > [øː], [ow] > [oː]
(2) Loss of postvocallic glottal stops with compensatory lengthening, [ɜː ʊː] > [øː], [æː] > [aː];
(2.1) Fortition of other glottal stops to [t]
(3) Terminal [ŋ] > [j, w], conditioned by the preceding vowel; shortening of preceding long vowels;
(3.1) Initial [ŋ] > [w] postconsonantally

kèm krà tshên tshên
bràk pràks gwê sreuw
sqhrâ gwəts tî nii
dzêu sturt tit peuw

swàks gwê dzòrn tə
klêu tsrâ tshâ ntràrn
swàks nru dzow tə
tort dzeût sturt truw teuw

[kɛm krɑ tsʰɛːn tsʰɛːn
brɑk prɑks gʷɛː srøw
sqʰraː gʷəts tiː nij
dzøː sturt tit pøw

swɑks gʷɛː dzɔɳ tə
kløː tsraː tsʰaː ntrɑɳ
swɑks nru dzow tə
tort dzøː sturt truw tøw]

(I don't suppose it's possible to get the Hanzi spellings for the original? That would be fun to play with.)

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:16 am (1) First, we can smooth out the diphthongs a bit: [ɑj ɛj ɜj] > [ɛː], [æj] > [eː], [wə] > [uə] > [uː], [iə ij] > [iː], [æw] > [øː], [ow] > [oː]
(2) Loss of postvocallic glottal stops with compensatory lengthening, [ɜː ʊː] > [øː], [æː] > [aː];
(2.1) Fortition of other glottal stops to [t]
(3) Terminal [ŋ] > [j, w], conditioned by the preceding vowel; shortening of preceding long vowels;
(3.1) Initial [ŋ] > [w] postconsonantally

kèm krà tshên tshên
bràk pràks gwê sreuw
sqhrâ gwəts tî nii
dzêu sturt tit peuw

swàks gwê dzòrn tə
klêu tsrâ tshâ ntràrn
swàks nru dzow tə
tort dzeût sturt truw teuw

[kɛm krɑ tsʰɛːn tsʰɛːn
brɑk prɑks gʷɛː srøw
sqʰraː gʷəts tiː nij
dzøː sturt tit pøw

swɑks gʷɛː dzɔɳ tə
kløː tsraː tsʰaː ntrɑɳ
swɑks nru dzow tə
tort dzøː sturt truw tøw]

(I don't suppose it's possible to get the Hanzi spellings for the original? That would be fun to play with.)

1. ij uw øw > iː uː øː
2. Epenthetic stops in SR NR clusters matching voicing of preceding consonant.
2.1. But /sw/ undergoes fortition to /sp/
3. Final CT, TC > C with compensatory lengthening of nucleus.
4. a > ɑ if the syllable contains a uvular


kèm krà tshên tshên
bràk prààs gwê srêu
sqhràà gwəəs tî nî
dzêu stût tit pêu

spààs gwê dzòrn tə
klêu tsrâ tshâ ntràrn
spààs ndru dzô tə
tôr dzêut stûr trû têu

[kɛm krɑ tsʰɛːn tsʰɛːn
brɑk prɑːs gʷɛː strøː
sqʰrɑː gʷəːs tiː niː
dzøː stuːr tit pøː

spɑːs gʷɛː dzɔɳ tə
kløː tsraː tsʰaː ntrɑɳ
spɑːs ndru dzoː tə
toːr dzøːt stuːr truː tøː]

edit: shouldn't it be [dzøːt] in the transcription?

Hanzi is at the end of the video, sample text https://youtu.be/zyaFKnUumAM

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:56 pm Hanzi is at the end of the video, sample text https://youtu.be/zyaFKnUumAM

I don't suppose you have a transcription? There are quite a number I don't know in there.

So far, I've managed to transcribe:
蒹葭苍苍
白露為*霜
所渭**伊人
在水一方
[?]洄从之
道阻且長*
[?]游从之
宛在水中央

It's taking a moment to look up all the rest, but I figured I might put this here in case somebody else knows more Hanzi/Kanji than I do.

*Seems to be a simplified character; here the traditional form is given.
**Uncertain.

Edit: Filled in more characters.
Edit 2: Just one more.

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:50 pm [kɛm krɑ tsʰɛːn tsʰɛːn
brɑk prɑːs gʷɛː strøː
sqʰrɑː gʷəːs tiː niː
dzøː stuːr tit pøː

spɑːs gʷɛː dzɔɳ tə
kløː tsraː tsʰaː ntrɑɳ
spɑːs ndru dzoː tə
toːr dzøːt stuːr truː tøː]

1. Alveolars turn into retroflexes before [r]
2. qʰ → χ
3. Vowels round (e,ə,ɑ → ø, ɵ, ɔ) after Cʷ and labials; Cʷ → C
4. Chain shift: ø → y, ɵ → ø
5. Long vowels add medials: aː ɑː ɛː øː yː iː ɔː oː uː əː → ja jɑ jɛ ɥø wy wi wɔ wo ju jə

kem tra / tshyen tshyen
brak prjas / gwe srwe
sqhrya gwəs / twi nwi
dzwe styur / tit pwe

spyas gwe / dzòrn tə
klwe tsrya / tshya ntrarn
spwòs ndru / dzwo tə
twor dzwet styur / tryu twe

[kɛm ʈɑ tsʰjɛn tsʰjɛn
brɑk prjɑs gwy strwy
sχrjɑ gɥøs twi nwi
dzwy stjur tit pwy

spjɑs gɥy dzɔɳ tə
klwy tsrja tsʰja ɳʈɑɳ
spwɔs ɳɖu dzwo tə
twor dzwyt stjur ʈju twy]

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:28 pm

1. Alveolars turn into retroflexes before [r]
2. qʰ → χ
3. Vowels round (e,ə,ɑ → ø, ɵ, ɔ) after Cʷ and labials; Cʷ → C
4. Chain shift: ø → y, ɵ → ø
5. Long vowels add medials: aː ɑː ɛː øː yː iː ɔː oː uː əː → ja jɑ jɛ ɥø wy wi wɔ wo ju jə

kem tra / tshyen tshyen
brak prjas / gwe srwe
sqhrya gwəs / twi nwi
dzwe styur / tit pwe

spyas gwe / dzòrn tə
klwe tsrya / tshya ntrarn
spwòs ndru / dzwo tə
twor dzwet styur / tryu twe

[kɛm ʈɑ tsʰjɛn tsʰjɛn
brɑk prjɑs gwy strwy
sχrjɑ gɥøs twi nwi
dzwy stjur tit pwy

spjɑs gɥy dzɔɳ tə
klwy tsrja tsʰja ɳʈɑɳ
spwɔs ɳɖu dzwo tə
twor dzwyt stjur ʈju twy]

1.) [w ɥ j] are absorbed into the preceding consonant, producing labialisation, labiopalatalisation, or palatalisation
1.1) Labialised consonants before [i] become labiopalatals, all consonants preceding [i] are palatalised, all consoants before [y] are labiopalatalised
1.2) Labialised and labiopalatal consonants undergo affrication, velars and retroflexes to palatal affricates, laminals to dental affricates, [lʲ rʲ] > [j], [lᶣ rᶣ] > [ɥ], [sχj] > [ɕ]
1.3) [nᶣ] > [mᶣ]
2.) Initially, unaspirated voiceless consonants other than [s ɕ] become aspirated; initial [s] or an initial voiced consonant blocks the change.
2.1) Remaining postconsonantal [l r] > [j]
2.2) Insertion of "weak" epinthetic [ɨ] to break up initial clusters that remain, unless the second element is a glide.
2.3) [ə] merges with [ɨ]
3.) Vowels are fronted and/or raised following [j] or palatals, backed and/or lowered following [w] or labials, and backed and rounded following [ɥ] or labiopalatals; in such environments [i], [o], and [y] undergo no change, respectively.
3.1) [ɥ] is absorbed, causing further labiopalatalisation, before [y]

蒹葭苍苍
白露為霜
所渭伊人
在水一方
溯洄从之
道阻且長
溯游从之
宛在水中央

Kem tra chen chen
Biak pias jü chü
Sha jüs tsü mü
Jü sytsur tsit pü

Sypias jü dzorn ty
Chü cha cha nrytrarn
Sypuos nrydru dzwo ty
Twor jüt sytsur chü tsü

[kʰɛm ʈʰɑ c͡ɕʰen c͡ɕʰen
bjæk pʰjæs ɟ͡ʑᶣy c͡ɕʰᶣy
ɕæ ɟ͡ʑys t͡sʰy mᶣy
ɟ͡ʑᶣy sɨt͡sur t͡sʰit pᶣy

sɨpʲæs ɟ͡ʑᶣy d͡zɔɳ tʰɨ
c͡ɕᶣy c͡ɕʰæ c͡ɕʰæ ɳɨʈɑɳ
sɨpʷos ɳɨɖu dzʷo tʰɨ
tʰʷor ɟ͡ʑᶣyt sɨt͡sur c͡ɕᶣy t͡sᶣy]

What a scandal — it's a non-monosyllabic Sinitic language now!

(Edit: Fixed codes.)

@Otto Kretschmer

Can we add texts of our own to be evolved, or would you like to be the sole arbiter of that duty? I have a particular text I think would be interesting for the next round.