Zompist Bboard Again

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:36 am

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:43 am In part, it's phonological bad luck. Lose the final -m, the ā/a distinction, and the ō/u distinction, and you've merged a lot of the nominal case forms.

Which I guess explains how Romanian managed to retain some, since it merged the rounded vowels differently.

But Romanian is also very innovative in some of its case endings (similar to how, say, Celtic and Germanic languages were in analogically extending plural endings to classes of nouns which has lost them) which I think shows that there was pressure to retain them. Traditionally, the explanation is that it was surrounded by other languages (e.g. Greek, Proto-Slavic) with robust inflectional morphology but that seems like a weak explanation given that Western Romance was in contact with Proto-Basque and Germanic--though the fact that most Germanic varieties went on to drastically simplify their case systems as well suggests some sort of Sprachbund effect.

I don't think Proto-Basque was a relevant influence on Western Romance, but rather on the contrary. The most important substrates would be Hispano-Celtic (with several varieties besides of Celtiberian, Lusitanian (as well as other "Italoid" languages), Iberian and Gaulish.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:39 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:36 am

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:43 am In part, it's phonological bad luck. Lose the final -m, the ā/a distinction, and the ō/u distinction, and you've merged a lot of the nominal case forms.

Which I guess explains how Romanian managed to retain some, since it merged the rounded vowels differently.

But Romanian is also very innovative in some of its case endings (similar to how, say, Celtic and Germanic languages were in analogically extending plural endings to classes of nouns which has lost them) which I think shows that there was pressure to retain them. Traditionally, the explanation is that it was surrounded by other languages (e.g. Greek, Proto-Slavic) with robust inflectional morphology but that seems like a weak explanation given that Western Romance was in contact with Proto-Basque and Germanic--though the fact that most Germanic varieties went on to drastically simplify their case systems as well suggests some sort of Sprachbund effect.

I don't think Proto-Basque was a relevant influence on Western Romance, but rather on the contrary. The most important substrates would be Hispano-Celtic (with several varieties besides of Celtiberian, Lusitanian (as well as other "Italoid" languages), Iberian and Gaulish.

Fair. Ibero-Romance has borrowed a few words from Basque (the most famous perhaps the word for 'left (direction)', Castilian izquierdo), but otherwise it is not particularly similar to it; while Basque has borrowed a lot of words from (Vulgar) Latin (which are valuable for reconstructing the phonological history of Basque in the last 2,000 years, as we can compare them to their known Latin antecedents and thus recover the sound changes).

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:14 amIbero-Romance has borrowed a few words from Basque (the most famous perhaps the word for 'left (direction)', Castilian izquierdo),

The source of these loanwords can't be any modern form of Basque but rather Iberian or other Pre-Latin languages (either related to Basque or not). For example, Spanish vega, Portuguese veiga 'river valley', usually attributed to Basque, is actually from Iberian baikar 'a kind of vessel', a well documented word in inscriptions.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:14 amwhile Basque has borrowed a lot of words from (Vulgar) Latin (which are valuable for reconstructing the phonological history of Basque in the last 2,000 years, as we can compare them to their known Latin antecedents and thus recover the sound changes).

Given the fact Proto-Basque itself dates from the Visigothic period (roughly the 6th century dC), the number of Vulgar Latin/Early Romance loanwords is comparatively scarce, overhelmed by those from Church Latin/Mozarabic at the time of Christianization (roughly the 9th century dC). Compare for example gela 'cellar' with zeru 'heaven', with different developments from /ce/. On the other hand, a purported Latin loanword such as liburu 'book'*, is actually from Spanish libro (cfr. dialectal pel(l)iburu 'danger' from Spanish peligro).

The thing is, regardless of the source, the internal developments of some Basque words are rather puzzling. To quote an example, betagin 'canine tooth', a transparent compound of bet- (combinatory variant of begi) 'eye' and (h)agin 'molar tooth', has the dialectal variants matagin, letagin (the standard form), letain, litagin, litain, ithain, where l- is apparently prosthetic and replaces an otherwise lost initial stop.

IMHO, this and other oddities could be explained as the reflex of various adstrate/substrate influences. As a matter of fact, the available evidence suggest the W and SW of the historical Basque country were occupied at Roman times by IE-speaking (presumably Celtic) tribes, so some scholars think Basque entered these territories after the 6th century dC, thus replacing the pre-existing (already Latinized or not) languages.

* The standard Basque word for 'book', gut(h)un, found in northern dialects, is an adaptation from western kut(t)un 'pincushion; amulet; scapular', itself a loanword from Hispano-Arabic qutˁún ‘cotton’.

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:34 am Wasn't Russian always stress-timed? I would expect that it was Old East Slavic that lost pitch accent.

Standard Russian has vowel reduction but is a relatively new development. Some varieties of Russian (particularly Northern Russian) have less vowel reduction than others, and other East Slavic varieties also have vowel reduction, so I would guess this is also an old development in those varieties.

According to my sources, the various vowel reductions in the dialects are first observed in the 14th century. They're a feature of Central Russian dialects and Belarussian*1); Northern, Southern Russian dialects and Ukrainian were unaffected.
As vowel reduction is a feature of the standard language, it has spread throughout the Russian speaking area; its lack (the so-called okanye) and non-standard forms of vowel reduction now are considered as a sign of rural or non-educated speech.
*1) Belarussian also has the merger of unstressed /o/ and /a/ into /a/ ("akanye"), but differs in the details of the outcomes for other unstressed vowels, like /e/, /ya/.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:44 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:14 amIbero-Romance has borrowed a few words from Basque (the most famous perhaps the word for 'left (direction)', Castilian izquierdo),

The source of these loanwords can't be any modern form of Basque but rather Iberian or other Pre-Latin languages (either related to Basque or not).

If you're going back to Latin or Pre-Latin times, that would make it by default not modern form of Basque; instead, it would be a Latin-era form of Basque...so rather than go looking for Iberian, why not just take the opportunity to look at what Basque was like in the time of Marius and Caesar?

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:48 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:44 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:14 amIbero-Romance has borrowed a few words from Basque (the most famous perhaps the word for 'left (direction)', Castilian izquierdo),

The source of these loanwords can't be any modern form of Basque but rather Iberian or other Pre-Latin languages (either related to Basque or not).

If you're going back to Latin or Pre-Latin times, that would make it by default not modern form of Basque; instead, it would be a Latin-era form of Basque...so rather than go looking for Iberian, why not just take the opportunity to look at what Basque was like in the time of Marius and Caesar?

Which was precisely what I meant by "Basque" - Talskubilos was merely pedantic here. Of course, a word that has been in Castilian for many centuries can't be borrowed from Modern Basque, but rather from Roman-Era Basque, unless both Basque and Castilian had both borrowed it from a third source.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:48 amIf you're going back to Latin or Pre-Latin times, that would make it by default not modern form of Basque; instead, it would be a Latin-era form of Basque...so rather than go looking for Iberian, why not just take the opportunity to look at what Basque was like in the time of Marius and Caesar?

The thing is sound changes in Paleo-Basque were often weird, up to the point of making correspondences almost unrecognizable. Some examples:

Spanish gusano, gusana 'worm' ~ Basque zizare, zizari 'worm'
Leonese marón 'ram' ~ Basque ahari 'ram' < *a-mari, with merging of nasals.
Leonese sancho 'rabbit' ~ Basque untxi 'rabbit'
Aragonese meco 'calf' ~ Basque behi 'cow'

Are you sure about those?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:51 amAre you sure about those?

They're also other not-so-weird correspondences, as e.g.:

Spanish chorro 'jet' ~ Basque iturri 'spring, source', apparently a compound whose first member is related to *ib- ~*ub- > ur, u(h)- 'water'.
Spanish carrasca 'a kind of oak' ~ Basque gardaska, gardatx 'oak scrub'

The second one I could believe, the first one looks more like the (certainly unrelated) Japanese word than the Spanish one.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:46 am

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:48 amIf you're going back to Latin or Pre-Latin times, that would make it by default not modern form of Basque; instead, it would be a Latin-era form of Basque...so rather than go looking for Iberian, why not just take the opportunity to look at what Basque was like in the time of Marius and Caesar?

The thing is sound changes in Paleo-Basque were often weird, up to the point of making correspondences almost unrecognizable. Some examples:

Spanish gusano, gusana 'worm' ~ Basque zizare, zizari 'worm'
Leonese marón 'ram' ~ Basque ahari 'ram' < *a-mari, with merging of nasals.
Leonese sancho 'rabbit' ~ Basque untxi 'rabbit'
Aragonese meco 'calf' ~ Basque behi 'cow'

okay. thank you for the examples; though i confess I don't follow the reasoning of how, with Paleo-Basque looking like that, you feel obligated to look to non-Basque non-IE languages for what you were seeking.

Of course, all these items are loanwords from Classical Atlantean!

If Atlantis is Japan, I can see the connection between Iturri and Proto-Japonic *intumi.

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:57 pmokay. thank you for the examples; though i confess I don't follow the reasoning of how, with Paleo-Basque looking like that, you feel obligated to look to non-Basque non-IE languages for what you were seeking.

What's the problem with Iberian? On the other hand, there're traces of non-Celtic IE languages in the Iberian Peninsula.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:34 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:57 pmokay. thank you for the examples; though i confess I don't follow the reasoning of how, with Paleo-Basque looking like that, you feel obligated to look to non-Basque non-IE languages for what you were seeking.

What's the problem with Iberian? On the other hand, there're traces of non-Celtic IE languages in the Iberian Peninsula.

But I don't understand how you can tell that they're Iberian, when you yourself say you can barely recognize Paleo-Basque.

Well, Talskubilos simply doesn't know what he is doing, but still believes he is right. Like a wanderer lost in a forest who nevertheless believes he is on the right track.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:39 am Well, Talskubilos simply doesn't know what he is doing, but still believes he is right. Like a wanderer lost in a forest who nevertheless believes he is on the right track.

I see what you did there.

I can assure you that the pun was unintended.

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:04 pmBut I don't understand how you can tell that they're Iberian, when you yourself say you can barely recognize Paleo-Basque.

Well, I don't think they're all from Iberian, but at least some of them, as e.g. carrasca. On the other hand, Spanish vega and Portuguese veiga are demonstrated Iberian loanwords with no Basque counterpart.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:25 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:04 pmBut I don't understand how you can tell that they're Iberian, when you yourself say you can barely recognize Paleo-Basque.

Well, I don't think they're all from Iberian, but at least some of them, as e.g. carrasca. On the other hand, Spanish vega and Portuguese veiga are demonstrated Iberian loanwords with no Basque counterpart.

How about iturri though? Is it a wanderwort?