Zompist Bboard Again

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:33 am One that's a bit funny is "preservative" (mineral or chemical that preserves food) vs. Spanish preservativo / French préservatif 'condom'.

Eh. I remember 'No preservatives' being an endless source of giggling for schoolboys.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:47 am

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:33 am One that's a bit funny is "preservative" (mineral or chemical that preserves food) vs. Spanish preservativo / French préservatif 'condom'.

Eh. I remember 'No preservatives' being an endless source of giggling for schoolboys.

German Präservativ also means condom. It's the more literary variant; in colloquial speech you'd say Kondom or use a slang term like Pariser.

"Who's more patriotic? The Italians or the French?

The Italians. They drink their wine from a Römer. Did you ever see a French person drinking wine from a Pariser?"

Another one of my favorites:

English self-conscious - "very conscious of one's own real or imagined flaws, and of the things one, really or supposedly, has done wrong"

vs.

German selbstbewusst - literally "self-conscious", but actually "confident", that is, the opposite of "self-conscious".

Between Tagalog and Spanish:

- the infamous puto mamon
- siguro (maybe) vs. seguro (sure/certain)
- almusal (breakfast) vs. almorzar (lunch)

Recently, I learned that English dinner can also be a midday meal. It can be traced to Old French disner (lunch). I wonder how common it is words for mealtimes to be false friends.

elgis wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:09 am Recently, I learned that English dinner can also be a midday meal. It can be traced to Old French disner (lunch).

We’ve discussed this here in the past. I believe the short version is that ‘dinner’ was historically the largest meal of the day: historically that was around noon, but now it’s in the evening.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 8:19 am

elgis wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:09 am Recently, I learned that English dinner can also be a midday meal. It can be traced to Old French disner (lunch).

We’ve discussed this here in the past. I believe the short version is that ‘dinner’ was historically the largest meal of the day: historically that was around noon, but now it’s in the evening.

The funniest thing about this is that, for example, in Swedish, the same thing happened, but it wasn't just an otherwise meaningless word: the word for the evening meal is now middag, which also transparently means "midday".

Even weirder, the Middle High German word vrōkost "early meal" was borrowed into the Scandinavian languages where it is now:

Swedish: frukost "breakfast"
Nynorsk: frukost "breakfast"
Bokmål: frokost "breakfast"
Danish: frokost "LuNcH"

With words shifting from midday meal to nighttime meal, I can understand it as a natural result of the cultural shift from eating the biggest meal in the evening (although I do find it funny when the word transparently means "midday"), but the Danish use of frokost to mean "lunch" just makes me think of people either getting up really late or just skipping breakfast as a normal thing and I find that highly relatable.

elgis wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:09 am Recently, I learned that English dinner can also be a midday meal. It can be traced to Old French disner (lunch). I wonder how common it is words for mealtimes to be false friends.

Actually, it's worse than that: the meaning of dîner is different between various dialects of French.

For me, speaking Parisian French:

• the morning meal is petit déjeuner
• the midday meal is déjeuner
• the evening meal is dîner

But in more conservative dialects, e.g. in Canada, Belgium or Normandy:

• the morning meal is déjeuner
• the midday meal is dîner
• the evening meal is souper

Etymology note: the last one derives from soupe, and was borrowed into English as supper. Déjeuner transparently relates to jeûner, to fast, so it should mean "breakfast"... but not in my dialect. Incidentally, dîner ultimately comes from Latin disieiūnāre... which also meant "to break the fast", so déjeuner and dîner are etymological doublets. The word gradually shifted from the first meal of the day to the last.

Another case of a meal name shifting to later in the day is Russian uzhin "supper", which is derived from ug "South, Mid-day" (dialect variant of Standard yug "South"; ug is the expected East Slavic form with Proto-Slavic *#yu -> East Slavic #u-, while the Standard form comes from Church Slavic.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 8:19 am

elgis wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:09 amRecently, I learned that English dinner can also be a midday meal. It can be traced to Old French disner (lunch).

We’ve discussed this here in the past. I believe the short version is that ‘dinner’ was historically the largest meal of the day: historically that was around noon, but now it’s in the evening.

You can find relics of this in modern usage. In the American South, "Thanksgiving dinner" can start as early as midday. (I asked my Texas-born roommate once "So someone really gets up at 4 am to show a turkey in the oven?" and he was like "Yessir!") And I know families where it and "Christmas dinner" begin in the late afternoon.

Catalan has at least one example of a meal going to the other direction: berenar (cognate with Spanish merienda, Italian merenda) is--in most of the Catalan Sprachraum--an afternoon snack. However, in the Balearic Islands, it most often refers to breakfast (elsewhere called esmorzar--corresponding to Spanish almorzar "to lunch").

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:59 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 8:19 am

elgis wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:09 amRecently, I learned that English dinner can also be a midday meal. It can be traced to Old French disner (lunch).

We’ve discussed this here in the past. I believe the short version is that ‘dinner’ was historically the largest meal of the day: historically that was around noon, but now it’s in the evening.

You can find relics of this in modern usage. In the American South, "Thanksgiving dinner" can start as early as midday. (I asked my Texas-born roommate once "So someone really gets up at 4 am to show a turkey in the oven?" and he was like "Yessir!") And I know families where it and "Christmas dinner" begin in the late afternoon.

When I'd go over to my very Polish grandmother's for Thanksgiving, Christmas, or Easter we'd always eat dinner in the mid-afternoon.

Hock’s Principles of Historical Linguistics (2021) has an interesting example from four different Jamaican dialects:

	5–7am	11am–noon	4–6pm	7–8:30pm	10:30pm–midnight
Upper middle class	breakfast (M)	lunch (M)	tea (L)	dinner (H)	supper (L)
Lower middle class	breakfast (M)	dinner (H)	supper (M)	supper (L)
Estate labourer	tea (L)	breakfast (M)		dinner (H)
Peasant Farmer	tea (L)	breakfast (H)	dinner (M)	supper (L)

There is actually some regularity here: ‘tea’ is always a light meal in the morning or afternoon, ‘breakfast’ is a medium-size and early meal (though its timing depends on ‘tea’), ‘dinner’ is usually the biggest meal of the day, and ‘supper’ comes after dinner.

When I was a little kid, the word we used for what I now call dinner was supper, but as I got older dinner replaced supper, which fell by the wayside, and supper sounds somewhat dated to me now.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 1:54 pm When I was a little kid, the word we used for what I now call dinner was supper, but as I got older dinner replaced supper, which fell by the wayside, and supper sounds somewhat dated to me now.

Oh, semantic shifts in the meaning of words are nothing. In Germany, over the course of the last few generations, the social norms and conventions about what's actually the main meal of the day gradually shifted from lunch to dinner.

Isn't that a mediterranean thing like in places like france and italy? i wouldn't expect to see it in germany of all places.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:45 pm Isn't that a mediterranean thing like in places like france and italy? i wouldn't expect to see it in germany of all places.

Well, it is a recent development. But hasn't that also been the norm in the UK and the US for a while?

Dinner being the largest meal of the day is the norm in anglo countries (it used to be the only meal i eat) but i was referring to the big lunch which i've heard is accompanied by rather large breaks from work in places like france and spain. .

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:31 am Dinner being the largest meal of the day is the norm in anglo countries (it used to be the only meal i eat) but i was referring to the big lunch which i've heard is accompanied by rather large breaks from work in places like france and spain. .

Well, German lunch was never as big as in France or Spain, but it used to be bigger than German breakfast or German dinner.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:33 am Well, German lunch was never as big as in France or Spain, but it used to be bigger than German breakfast or German dinner.

It also used to be the only hot meal in the day, except if you had guests for dinner.
That model was very much based on stay-at-home housewives, or women working at most half-time, so they would be at home to cook lunch at noon.
My family was actually unusual here - as my parents had a shop in a neighbouring town and were both away during the day, we had our big, hot meal for dinner, and then we kids would warm the leftovers for lunch the next day. We also had an English-style breakfast on Sundays, with bacon & eggs and baked beans, which was also unusual at that time.