Re: Telpahké: the thread - Personal Pronouns
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:13 am
I don't think there are too many pronouns, it strikes me as a rather natural system for an Australian language imo.
Crossing our fingers
https://verduria.org/
Did I base the Imparin pronoun system on any real natlang? Yes, but you'll be surprised as to which one.evmdbm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:37 am This really is my unattainable counsel of perfection! Having said that....
This is different from Japanese, which I'm plagiarising ruthlessly, in that Japanese not only has different personal pronouns for say first person singular - watakushi, watashi, boku, atashi, atakushi and so on, it also has the plain and polite forms of the verb with -masu. Did you base this idea of grammaticalising distinctions of politeness solely in pronouns on any real natlang? When I asked you about the impact of caste on language earlier you said you were looking at Javanese - about which I know nothing. There's nothing here about caste; presumably Mokór and Hɔθár use the intimate peer pronouns in their fraternity, but is there any chance of their being in different castes and that affecting the pronouns they use even outside of the court room?
And why the blank for intimate younger interlocutors? There isn't a blank in the plural. The plural blank for inclusive we with lower status non-intimate I understand (what are doing associating with these people?)
I get where you're coming from, but I do think that this needs to be nipped in the bud, as it were: Telpahké as a language and the Impar as a culture are not inspired by anything in Indonesia, or indeed the Malay archipelago as a whole. I've mentioned it in passing, and the native cultures of (for example) Borneo have been interesting if not instructive in creating all this. Agriculture and botany aside, my influences in creating the Impar have rather been from Mesoamerica and the Indian subcontinent.Akangka wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 am Well, do Aldeia and Rascana also tend to be shirtless (I initially thought that two cultures can't possibly do that)? If one of them do, Telpahke could also follow.
On the other hand, I think your pronoun is too many. Japanese probably only use 5-6 pronouns normally in a single person-number category (Sure you can list 20+ for "I", but most of them is archaic). And, despite Javanese has a more complex system, Javanese only have 4-5 pronouns. Generally, languages with this many pronouns also lack formal/polite 2nd person pronoun. (A honorific title is used instead).
An idea: 2nd person broadcast pronoun. (Used when giving announcement, news, addressing reader on a written book, etc)
In order:Risla wrote: ↑Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:26 pm I appreciate the level of detail you've put into this; it's done really well, and is inspiring me to continue working on my own worldbuilding!
Since you're on the topic of clothing, I have some very specific questions about textiles (a personal interest!) among the Impar, which you may feel free to ignore.
1. I expect these textiles are primarily woven, but are there other methods for creating textiles? (eg. nalbinding or knitting). If so, what sorts of garments or goods are
2. Do they have access to spinning wheel technology, or is all yarn and thread spun by hand? What kind of technology is used?
3. Spinning and weaving in significant quantities are quite labor-intensive for the amount of cloth produced, which means that in many historical societies, very large segments of the population have engaged in these activities (especially women, though not always). I assume the caste divide also plays a part in who does most textile manufacturing.
But I don't think pronoun can come from insult. Japanese 'temee' and 'kisama' was a honorific pronoun.dewrad wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:52 pm As to the non-intimate pronouns, Akangka makes the point that in languages with multiple levels of politeness, it is more likely that second person pronouns will actually be titles. This is exactly what is going on here, with the addition that for men the "non-intimate lower-status interlocutor" pronouns are actually insults: popúǝk is etymologically "piece of dung".
Sorry, I wouldn't.dewrad wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:52 pm Given that I already had a world map, which had a chain of islands between Adeia (the main continent) and Rascana (where I had chucked Tarì as the "mysterious other"), it seemed obvious where to place this language. So there you go: I am not trying to create anything Indonesian-like. What Javanese, Bahasa Malayu etc do is interesting, but by no means persuasive or conclusive. Therefore, please don't say that my imaginings are "unrealistic" because they don't exactly match what happens in Indonesia.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions! I was worried they were too specific and about a topic nobody really bothers with, but I do tend to think that textile production is often overlooked in worldbuilding despite its importance and the scale of work involved.dewrad wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:52 pm 1) Knitting, nalbinding, felting and so on are all techniques known, as they exist in Adeia. Native fabrics, however, are exclusively produced on a loom.
2) Yes. The spinning wheel was first developed in Rascana about five centuries ago. The Tarì term is ṣakkhà, which was in turn borrowed as Telpahké sahká (the Tarì is cognate to Telpahké łahłɛ́ 'wheel' - both from Proto-Atzato-Tarian *ṣakṣak 'wheel'). Over the past five centuries, the spinning wheel has been developed to the degree that four bobbins can be spun at the same time, almost like a primitive spinning jenny. This hasn't seen the explosion of yarn production that one might think, as the preparation of cotton rovings has remained entirely by hand.
3) As I mention above, caste isn't really a thing anymore in Imparin society. Textile production is heavily gendered among the Impar: oddly, since the introduction of the spinning wheel it is men that spin but women that weave (and do the carding, to be honest). In particularly backward areas where drop-spinning is still the normal way of doing things, it's women that do the spinning.
Over the past century or so, primarily due to the increasing demand for cotton fabric in Adeia, urban areas have developed what might be termed incipient factories, where yarn is woven into cloth. These are almost entirely staffed by women. Unlike (say) 18th century Britain, there's no stigma attached to women working outside the home, but there is a massive stigma about men weaving.
One of the reasons why we see Imparin cloth factories rather than raw cotton being exported to Adeia (in contrast to raw Indian cotton being exported to Britain, spun and woven in Lancashire and then sold back to India) is because there is very little difference in the technological development between the Spice Islands and Adeia.
(Hope that makes sense and is consistent: I don't know huge amounts about textile production, but your questions certainly made me think and do some research!)
Bingo! You win the prize! It is indeed (to a degree) inspired by colloquial English.
Code: Select all
那棵樹葉子很大
nà kē shù yèzǐ hěn dà
DIST CL tree leaf NC big
That tree, the leaves are big (= that tree's leaves are big)
They're auxiliaries. There are eight of them in total: so far we've just been seeing i/in because I'm deliberately trying not to make things too weird. They essentially express tense, aspect and mood, while the lexical verb just expresses voice.
I agree, "unergative" and "unaccusative" are singularly unhelpful terms. My notes call them "agentive" and "patientive" respectively, but I know they're non-standard usages.evmdbm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:12 am I think I have this - just about, although since it's alien to every language I've ever learnt I'm not sure. I'm also not sure unergative and unaccusative help as terms. If it needs to be consciously done, surely it's ergative (work is being done, unergative suggests the opposite) but that is nabbed already for a nominal case name. I take it though that semantically an intransitive verb is classed as one or the other and presumably there is no patient voice for an unergative verb?
Well noted.Further it seems that agent voice or patient voice is partly dependent on what the speaker wants to get across as the main topic.
Next post is about transformations and topicalisation of non-core arguments. After that I'll actually go into verbal morphology, which will cover the auxiliary system.