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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:31 pm
by Karch
/βuŋ sʰɑːʀ/ <Vhung s’ar’>

/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p b t d k g ʔ/ <p b t d k g q>
/β f s sʰ~z̥ ʒ ʝ ɣ χ h/ <v f s s’ z y g’ x’ x>
/l ʎ w/ <l y’ w>
/r ʀ/ <r r’>

/i iː ʉ ʉː u uː ʏ ʏː ʊ ʊː e eː o oː ɛ ɛː œ œː ɔ ɔː æ æː ɑ ɑː ɒ ɒː/
<hi i hiu iu hu u hui ui huo uo he e ho o hee ee hoe oe hoo oo hae ae ha a hao ao>

/koː.tok hɒːʔ χiː.riːm βɑː.soː ʒʀiː.nʎɑːs ŋoːn.tok priʒ ʎɒː.kʏː æːs || hʎʊːŋ ʝʉːs ʀɛs bwiː.ʀiːŋ nʝoːs ʊ.ʎɒːs.ʃʀiːn.nʎʏːs sʰuːg gʀiː.miːs hɑː.toːn ||/
Kothok xaoq x’irim vaso zr’inl’as ngonthok priz l’okui aes. Xlyuong yius rh’ees bwir’ing nyos hul’aoszrinnl’uis s’ug gr’imis xaton.

----

/koːˈtajliː/ <Kotâyli>
/m n ɲ ɲʷ ŋ ŋʷ/ <m n ñ ñ° ng ng°>
/p b t d c ɟ cʷ ɟʷ k g kʷ gʷ/ <p b t d c j c° j° k g k° g°>
/ɸ β θ ð s z ç ʝ çʷ ʝʷ ʃ ʒ ʃʷ ʒʷ x ɣ xʷ ɣʷ h hʷ~ʍ/ <f v th dh s z x ỹ x° ỹ° sh zh sh° zh° x q x° q° h h°>
/ts dz tʃ dʒ tʃʷ dʒʷ/ <ts dz tsh dzh tsh° dzh°>
/l j ɥ w ɰ/ <l y y° w° w>
/r/ <r>

/i y ɨ u ə e o œ æ ɑ/ <i ui ie u e ei o oe ae a>
All vowels can be long or short. Short vowels are marked with a grave.
Stress is unpredictable and is marked with an acute. Stressed short vowels are marked with a circumflex.

/iːɲʷ ˈsvuː.hɑːn ˈŋʷeː.nɑː hɑ.ˈliːr ɥœːs ˈhæt.ŋɑ kuː.ˈrim.bus ʃʷriː || kʷɑːs 'kleːn.təs hə.'biːs kwɑːr ʒʷdʒʷoː hœt mɑːns kiːr.'liː ||/
Iñ° svúhan ng°éina hàlir y°oes hàetngà kurîmbùs sh°ri. K°as kléintès hèbís kwar zdzh°o hòet mans kirlí.

----

/oˈɍeɉo/ <Orheyho>
/m n ṉʲ ɴ/ <m n ny ng>
/p b t d ṯʲ ḏʲ k g q ɢ ʔ/ <p b t d ch j k g q qh ’>
/f v s z ɕ ʑ x ɣ χ ʁ h/ <f v s z sh zh x gh xh rh wh>
/ts dz ṯʲɕ ḏʲʑ/ <ts dz chs jz>
/l ḻʲ j ɉ ɥ ɰ w/ <l ly y yh yw gw w>
/r ɍ ṟʲ/ <r rh ry>
The r with the bar is a palatal trill and the j with the bar is an alveolopalatal approximant.

/i y ɯ u ɪ ʏ ɯ̽ ʊ e ø ɤ o ə ɛ œ ʌ ɔ a ɑ/ <i ú í u ih úh íh uh e ó é o ø eh óh éh oh a ah>
The tense vowels are always long, and the lax ones are always short.

/jus ɴɑm tjɛ.lɪq χə.lɑm ʑi.bɔp qɑ.χɑl || ɣeɍ.hos ṟʲɑ.ri kɥy.lis ɉa.jo kɛṉʲ saj.ha.bə ɢɔɍ ṯʲ͝ɕoɴ.ɢo txi bɑb.ɕo ki.ʔis ||/
Yus ngahm tyehlihq xhølahm zhibohp qahxhahl. Gherhwhos ryahri kywúlis yhayo kehny saywhabø qhohrh chsongqho txi bahbsho ki’is.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:19 pm
by Richard W
bradrn wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:40 pm EDIT: But once again, PHOIBLE gives some counterexamples. (Interestingly, quite a lot of those seem to have /ɣ/ — if the presence of /ɣ/ is sufficient to allow contrastive aspiration, then that would be really convenient for me, as I already have /ɣ/ in my phoneme inventory.)
Have you checked the inventories? I looked at the first two languages whose names I recognised. According to Wikipedia, Konkani has /h/. Korku was a more difficult one to check out. I finally found plenty of examples of /h/ in http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/zide1966korku.pdf . There seems to be something odd about its distribution, but it's definitely there.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:58 pm
by bradrn
Richard W wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:19 pm
bradrn wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:40 pm EDIT: But once again, PHOIBLE gives some counterexamples. (Interestingly, quite a lot of those seem to have /ɣ/ — if the presence of /ɣ/ is sufficient to allow contrastive aspiration, then that would be really convenient for me, as I already have /ɣ/ in my phoneme inventory.)
Have you checked the inventories? I looked at the first two languages whose names I recognised. According to Wikipedia, Konkani has /h/. Korku was a more difficult one to check out. I finally found plenty of examples of /h/ in http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/zide1966korku.pdf . There seems to be something odd about its distribution, but it's definitely there.
I did double-check some of the inventories on Wikipedia, and as you noticed for Konkani some of them are mis-transcribed on PHOIBLE. But there do seem to be some genuine cases of contrastive aspiration without /h/, e.g. Kunjen and Nchufie.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:01 pm
by Richard W
bradrn wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:58 pm I did double-check some of the inventories on Wikipedia, and as you noticed for Konkani some of them are mis-transcribed on PHOIBLE. But there do seem to be some genuine cases of contrastive aspiration without /h/, e.g. Kunjen and Nchufie.
Kunjen is easy. Digraphs with 'h' are used to convert alveolars to dentals, presumably on the pattern of Irish English <t> v. <th>. No contrastive aspiration.

Nchufie, also known as Bafanji, was harder to refute. There are only five words starting with /h/, and seemingly just two morphemes in the dictionary starting with <h>, hoŋ 'god' and hou 'there'. There is a Bafanj-English dictionary at https://www.webonary.org/bafanji/overview/introduction/, and you can use Silverman's paper to work out most of the orthography.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:14 pm
by Richard W
I tried looking through the others, but often I couldn't find any evidence. With Chantyal and Nar Phu, there is a hocus-pocus issue. Murmur can be analysed as a feature or as a final onset consonant. As the murmur consonant /ɦ/ is the only sort of /h/ for the Prakrits, we have to allow it as a sort of /h/. (Sanskrit had that and a coda-final /h/.) The description of Nar Phu (http://crossasia-repository.ub.uni-heid ... ar_Phu.pdf by Michael Noonan) analyses murmur as part of the tone, but does transcribe it as /ɦ/. Consequently, the word for 'letter' (= missive) is ɦîkɛ. (I get the impression that the speakers write in Tibetan.) So, I understand why no /h/-type phoneme is listed, but cry foul.

So so far, the only example of aspirates without /h/ remains Greek, but I'm not sure how well we've dated the change of aspirates to fricatives.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:28 pm
by jal
bradrn wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:49 amAh, right. But in that case, how do you decide which phonemes to write as consonants and which to write as vowels?
Whatever looks best. <i> and <u> have precedent of being both a vowel and a consonant, but then again, Welsh has <w> for a vowel. Also, you could maybe use diacritics to indicate a vowel-like quality.


JAL

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:42 am
by Karch
Konyak Naga /kôɲǎk/

/p pʰ t c k kʰ ʔ/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/s~ʃ h/
/w l j/

/i ɨ u e ə o a/

/a o u/ are lengthened before approximants.

There are three tones: level (unmarked), rising and falling.

/hǐpəkjoʔoŋe tajtaki wâkcɨŋme nôkcâ ŋoʔ || tə̌wnôkme henloŋʃe mɨ̌npu ʃɨkonahacâ ŋoʔ || jaə nawja joʔoŋe məje ŋoʔ || ecəj liʔwaŋə enaw henloŋ nawja məjpu ŋee eə majne meənhǔêtəjʔ || tə̌wkʰəj eə miʔpannawʃe kǐʔe enôkte jacəjʔe ənme pəjŋe ŋoʔ/

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:53 am
by Karch
/kôɲǎk/ <Koonyakh>

/p pʰ t c k kʰ ʔ/ <p ph t ch k kh '>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny ng>
/s~ʃ h/ <s h>
/w l j/ <w l y>

/i ɨ u e ə o a/ <i ü u e ä o a>

/a o u/ are lengthened before approximants.
/aw aj əw əj/ <ao ai äo äi>

There are three tones: level (unmarked), rising <ah> <akh> <ah'> and falling <aa>.

/hǐpəkjoʔoŋe tajtaki wâkcɨŋme nôkcâ ŋoʔ || tə̌wnôkme henloŋʃe mɨ̌npu ʃɨkonahacâ ŋoʔ || jaə nawja joʔoŋe məje ŋoʔ || ecəj liʔwaŋə enaw henloŋ nawja məjpu ŋee eə majne meənhǔêtəjʔ || tə̌wkʰəj eə miʔpannawʃe kǐʔe enôkte jacəjʔe ənme pəjŋe ŋoʔ/

Hihpäkyo'onge taitaki Waakchüngme nookcaa ngo'. Täohnookme Henlongse münhpu sükonahachaa ngo'. Yaä naoya yo'onge mäye ngo'. Echäi Li'wangä enao Henlong naoya mäipu nge-e eä maine meänhuh-eetäi'. Täohkhäi eä mi'pannaose kih'e enookte yachäi'e änme päinge ngo'.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:09 am
by bradrn
Oh good, this thread is active again! Looking forward to doing more of these.

Gònyág /kôɲǎk/

/p pʰ t c k kʰ ʔ/ ⟨b p d j g k q⟩
/m n ɲ ŋ/ ⟨m n ny ŋ⟩
/s~ʃ h/ ⟨s h⟩
/w l j/ ⟨w l y⟩

/i ɨ u e ə o a/ ⟨i ir u e er o a⟩

Lengthening of /a o u/ is not shown.

There are three tones: level is unmarked, while rising and falling are marked with V́ V̀ respectively.

/hǐpəkjoʔoŋe tajtaki wâkcɨŋme nôkcâ ŋoʔ || tə̌wnôkme henloŋʃe mɨ̌npu ʃɨkonahacâ ŋoʔ || jaə nawja joʔoŋe məje ŋoʔ || ecəj liʔwaŋə enaw henloŋ nawja məjpu ŋee eə majne meənhǔêtəjʔ || tə̌wkʰəj eə miʔpannawʃe kǐʔe enôkte jacəjʔe ənme pəjŋe ŋoʔ/

Hipergyoqoŋe daydagi wàgjirŋme nògjà ŋoq. Dérwnògme henloŋse mírnbu sirgonahajà ŋoq. Yaer nawya yoqoŋe merye ŋoq. Ejery liqwaŋer enaw henloŋ nawya merypu ŋee eer mayne meernhúèderyq. Térwkery eer miqbannawse kíqe enògde yajeryqe ernme peryŋe ŋoq.

Now, I can’t say I love the aesthetic of this romanization, but it’s practical, and at the end of the day that’s what really matters.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:47 pm
by Karch
/p pʰ t c k kʰ ʔ/ <p ph t c k kh q>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny ng>
/s~ʃ h/ <s h>
/w l j/ <w l y>

/i ɨ u e ə o a/ <i ui u e oe o a>

/a o u/ are lengthened before approximants.

There are three tones: level (unmarked), rising and falling. <a az ax>

/hǐpəkjoʔoŋe tajtaki wâkcɨŋme nôkcâ ŋoʔ || tə̌wnôkme henloŋʃe mɨ̌npu ʃɨkonahacâ ŋoʔ || jaə nawja joʔoŋe məje ŋoʔ || ecəj liʔwaŋə enaw henloŋ nawja məjpu ŋee eə majne meənhǔêtəjʔ || tə̌wkʰəj eə miʔpannawʃe kǐʔe enôkte jacəjʔe ənme pəjŋe ŋoʔ/

Hizpoekyoqonge taytaki Waxkcuingme noxkcax ngoq. Toewznoxkme Henlongse muinzpu suikonahacax ngoq. Yaoe nawya yoqonge moeye ngoq. Ecoey Liqwangoe enaw Henlong nawya moeypu ngee eoe mayne meoenhuzextoeyq. Toewzkhoey eoe miqpannawse kizqe enoxkte yacoeyqe oenme poeynge ngoq.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:31 pm
by Qwynegold
/koC2oɬɦuʐ/
I hope it's okay if I post this here all of a sudden. I took a look at an old conlang of mine that I haven't worked on in years. Oh, it's bad! >.< There's a lot of good ideas there, but it's so poorly conlanged. The orthography is also bad. So I thought I'd post the phoneme inventory here and see what anyone could come up with. I will probably not copy anyone's idea straight off, but if there are some good ideas, I might borrow some of them.

/m n ŋ~ɛ/
/p b t d tɕ k ɡ ʔ~ɑ/
/C1 C2/
/f s z ɬ ʃ ʂ ʐ ʝ x h ɦ/
/r ɽ/
/l j~i w~u/
/i u o ɛ ɑ/

I think stress is uncontrastive and that many weird consonant clusters are allowed. As indicated in the phoneme inventory, there are four consonants that can turn into vowels to avoid illegal clusters. I don't know what happens if an illegal cluster would arise with other consonants. Maybe a [ə] is inserted somewhere? The consonants C1 and C2 have an uncertain quality. I've asked about them before, but didn't get a good consensus on what they could be. I just made a new recording and the sound files and spectrograms can be downloaded here. I was so sure that C1 is voiced, but according to the spectrogram it's unvoiced. :?

I don't have any text to offer, so here's some random words I found in and old file:
bo
dɛl
ʝik
dokɑk
ɡɑ
ɡotuk
ɡu
it
itoʔ
kosɑ
koʔɛ
kotu
koC2
ko
kuw
ɽoʝi
lotɛ
loʝot
ɽomiʔ
lotɑt
mobi
mopu
momɛ
mokɛk
mofɛŋ
moɦuɡ
nonɑ
noʔɑf

poʃɑk
pu
C2ut
moC2

solɛn
somok
somot
tomi
tɛk
tomɑs
to
tos
tɕoʝi
todu
toʔol
ʃoC2ɑk
ʃoku
ʃi
ʃof
ʃoz
zoʔɛs
mos
ot
kom
ɦok
loC1ɑt

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pm
by bradrn
Qwynegold wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:31 pm /koC2oɬɦuʐ/
I hope it's okay if I post this here all of a sudden.
Oh, I’m fine with it — I’ve been hoping this thread would get started again!
The consonants C1 and C2 have an uncertain quality. I've asked about them before, but didn't get a good consensus on what they could be. I just made a new recording and the sound files and spectrograms can be downloaded here. I was so sure that C1 is voiced, but according to the spectrogram it's unvoiced. :?
I’m not entirely sure what they are, though they sound click-like. It doesn’t help that the recording is very soft and I can’t read spectrograms. For now I’ve transcribed them as /C1 C2/ ⟨ǂ nǂ⟩, since that’s how they sound, but I’m not entirely sure.

One question: how exactly do you produce those sounds? Or are you not sure?

____________________


Anyway, here’s the romanisation itself:

/koC2oɬɦuʐ/ ⟨Konǂołhuž⟩
/m n ŋ~ɛ/ ⟨m n ŋ⟩
/p b t d tɕ k ɡ ʔ~ɑ/ ⟨p b t d c k g q⟩
/C1 C2/ ⟨ǂ nǂ⟩
/f s z ɬ ʃ ʂ ʐ ʝ x h ɦ/ ⟨f s z ł ś š š y x hh h⟩
/r ɽ/ ⟨r ř⟩
/l j~i w~u/ ⟨l y w⟩
/i u o ɛ ɑ/ ⟨i u o e a⟩

Note that the consonant-vowel allophony is not represented.

And here’s the sample words:
More: show
bo
del
yik
dokaka
ga
gotuk
gu
it
itoq
kosa
koqe
kotu
konǂ
ko
kuw
royi
lote
loyot
řomiq
lotat
mobi
mopu
mome
mokek
mofeŋ
mohug
nona
noqaf
pa
pośak
pu
nǂut
monǂ
sa
solen
somok
somot
tomi
tek
tomas
to
tos
coyi
todu
doqol
śonǂak
śoku
śi
śof
śoz
zoqes
mos
ot
kom
hok
loǂat

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:07 am
by Qwynegold
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pmI’m not entirely sure what they are, though they sound click-like.
I used to think so too! But people kept saying they were ejectives.
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pmIt doesn’t help that the recording is very soft
You mean low volume?
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pmOne question: how exactly do you produce those sounds? Or are you not sure?
For C1 the tip of my tongue is right where the alveolar ridge is about to start, and a little bit of the underside of the front part of the tongue is against the alveolar ridge. Normally when I do retroflexes, my tongue is against the hard palate, so C1 is a "fronted retroflex"? I'm not sure about the manner of articulation though. It's like very forceful.

C2 is even more difficult to make sense of. On the spectrograms one can see that there is a very short period of voicelessness, followed by something that seems to be just an [n]. If a vowel is preceding this consonant, one can see that there is also a period of silence before the consonant, which I guess is an occlusion phase. To me it feels like I'm either sucking in air or just making a swallowing motion, and at the same time lowering the soft palate to open up the passage to the nasal cavity, and then I just release the consonant.
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pm/koC2oɬɦuʐ/ ⟨Konǂołhuž⟩
/m n ŋ~ɛ/ ⟨m n ŋ⟩
/p b t d tɕ k ɡ ʔ~ɑ/ ⟨p b t d c k g q⟩
/C1 C2/ ⟨ǂ nǂ⟩
/f s z ɬ ʃ ʂ ʐ ʝ x h ɦ/ ⟨f s z ł ś š š y x hh h⟩
/r ɽ/ ⟨r ř⟩
/l j~i w~u/ ⟨l y w⟩
/i u o ɛ ɑ/ ⟨i u o e a⟩
Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of ŋ and other such non-accented special characters! PS: You used <y> for two different consonants.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 am
by bradrn
Qwynegold wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:07 am
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pmIt doesn’t help that the recording is very soft
You mean low volume?
Yes.
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pmOne question: how exactly do you produce those sounds? Or are you not sure?
For C1 the tip of my tongue is right where the alveolar ridge is about to start, and a little bit of the underside of the front part of the tongue is against the alveolar ridge. Normally when I do retroflexes, my tongue is against the hard palate, so C1 is a "fronted retroflex"? I'm not sure about the manner of articulation though. It's like very forceful.
I’d call that POA ‘subapical alveolar.’ Not sure about the MOA, but clicks can be remarkably forceful if you do them right. (I saw a lovely video of this a while ago, but I can’t seem to find it now.)
C2 is even more difficult to make sense of. On the spectrograms one can see that there is a very short period of voicelessness, followed by something that seems to be just an [n]. If a vowel is preceding this consonant, one can see that there is also a period of silence before the consonant, which I guess is an occlusion phase. To me it feels like I'm either sucking in air or just making a swallowing motion, and at the same time lowering the soft palate to open up the passage to the nasal cavity, and then I just release the consonant.
Sounds like a glottalised nasal click. (Confirmation of this would be if the preceding vowel tends to be nasalised.)
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pm/koC2oɬɦuʐ/ ⟨Konǂołhuž⟩
/m n ŋ~ɛ/ ⟨m n ŋ⟩
/p b t d tɕ k ɡ ʔ~ɑ/ ⟨p b t d c k g q⟩
/C1 C2/ ⟨ǂ nǂ⟩
/f s z ɬ ʃ ʂ ʐ ʝ x h ɦ/ ⟨f s z ł ś š š y x hh h⟩
/r ɽ/ ⟨r ř⟩
/l j~i w~u/ ⟨l y w⟩
/i u o ɛ ɑ/ ⟨i u o e a⟩
Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of ŋ and other such non-accented special characters! PS: You used <y> for two different consonants.
Oh, oops! In that case I’ll do /ʝ j/ ⟨ɏ y⟩. (And, given your description that they’re alveolar, I’ll do /C1 C2/ ⟨ǃ nǃ⟩ instead.)

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:01 am
by Qwynegold
bradrn wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 am
Qwynegold wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:07 am You mean low volume?
Yes.
Ah, yeah. Recording yourself is so hard. I always get so inhibited. :oops:
bradrn wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 amI’d call that POA ‘subapical alveolar.’ Not sure about the MOA, but clicks can be remarkably forceful if you do them right. (I saw a lovely video of this a while ago, but I can’t seem to find it now.)
Hmm, how would you transcribe that? In broad and in narrow transcription?
bradrn wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 amSounds like a glottalised nasal click. (Confirmation of this would be if the preceding vowel tends to be nasalised.)
I just had a listen to the preceding vowel in isolation, and it doesn't sound nasalized at all. The nasal part comes after the consonant. I don't know if that's nasal release or just a cluster with [n]. Some of the things in that article seem right, but backwards. Besides the nasal part, it also says "there is a period of silence after the click", but in my consonant the period of silence comes before.
bradrn wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 am(And, given your description that they’re alveolar, I’ll do /C1 C2/ ⟨ǃ nǃ⟩ instead.)
No, only C1 is alveolar. C2 is pronounced far back in the mouth.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:08 am
by bradrn
Qwynegold wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:01 am
bradrn wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 amI’d call that POA ‘subapical alveolar.’ Not sure about the MOA, but clicks can be remarkably forceful if you do them right. (I saw a lovely video of this a while ago, but I can’t seem to find it now.)
Hmm, how would you transcribe that? In broad and in narrow transcription?
I wouldn’t know, sorry.
bradrn wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 amSounds like a glottalised nasal click. (Confirmation of this would be if the preceding vowel tends to be nasalised.)
I just had a listen to the preceding vowel in isolation, and it doesn't sound nasalized at all. The nasal part comes after the consonant. I don't know if that's nasal release or just a cluster with [n]. Some of the things in that article seem right, but backwards. Besides the nasal part, it also says "there is a period of silence after the click", but in my consonant the period of silence comes before.
Strange… I was under the impression that glottalised clicks have silence before the click, not after. I’ll have to double-check and see if I’m wrong with that.
bradrn wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 am(And, given your description that they’re alveolar, I’ll do /C1 C2/ ⟨ǃ nǃ⟩ instead.)
No, only C1 is alveolar. C2 is pronounced far back in the mouth.
In that case, I’ll do ⟨ǃ ǂ⟩.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:17 pm
by Karch
Here are two mutually intelligible dialects of a Sino-Tibetan (Kuki-Chin-Naga) language of northern India (Nagaland). The current orthography is tailored to another, closely related language (Chungli Ao) and is insufficient, underdifferentiating in some ways (not marking tone) but also overdifferentiating, e.g. writing Chungli's four vowels with six letters <a e i ü u o> or writing Chungli's one stop series with letters for both unvoiced and voiced stops. It's on you if you'll choose to write both dialects in the same orthography, since they're mutually intelligible, or write them in two different ones, or if you'll choose to make an orthography only for one variety.

Mongsen Ao of Mangmetong

/p t ʦ ʧ k ʔ/
/pʰ tʰ ʦʰ ʧʰ kʰ/
/m n ŋ/
/m̥ n̥ ŋ̊/
/s z h/
/w ɹ l j/
/w̥ ɹ̥ l̥ j̊/

The alveolar fricatives are pronounced as alveo-palatal before the front vowel /i/.

/i u ə a a̰/

The vowel /u/ is often pronounced as [o] in the vicinity of velars. /a̰/ is rare and occurs only in five roots, always before /w/.
There are three tones, high, mid and low. Mid tone is left unmarked in the text below.

/wàzàʔ tə̀luʔ la tsəpàʔ məsəm wa || təɹ | kʰə̀liŋlì, təɹ wàzàʔ təniŋ à li || təɹ kʰə̀liŋlìla tʃu, tsəpàʔ məsəməkə ìnti pʰitʰùŋtʃùku, pa mə̀ɹàlà || tə̀pànə wàzàʔ tə̀luʔ səntəpəɹ | pa tələm ku tsə̀pànə tələm tʃu apaktʃuk || təɹ pa tsəpàʔ ku atsə mə̀tʃəməjùʔ || təɹ pa tsəɹ̥ə̀tʰùŋku tsə́ŋí tʃakə "tsə́ŋí tsə́ŋí" tə̀ asaɹə̀ | atʃu ku pa nə ásátʰùŋku, tsəŋi ɹàɹə̀ || təɹ tsəŋi ɹàpàʔ táŋ tʃu | pa səŋàwà aɹa ku kə̀tpàʔ táŋ tʃəmlítʃəmlíʔ waɹuʔ || tə̀ atʃu táŋúʔ || j̊utsə tʃa atʃu/
/wa̰samali | tʰuku táŋ kəməɹ lili | anukàʔ wà̰sasili | tʰuku táŋ kəməɹ lili tə̀tʃʰaɹ.../

Mongsen Ao of Waromung

/p t ʦ ʧ k ʔ/
/pʰ tʰ ʦʰ ʧʰ kʰ/
/m n ŋ/
/s z h/
/w ɹ l j/

/i ʉ u ə a a̰/

The sixth vowel /ʉ/ seems to have arose from /i/ in verbal suffixes, particles and some high-frequency nouns. The same allophonic rules seem to apply both in Mangmetong and Waromung.
Because there was no Waromung story provided in the grammar, I've decided to include a couple of sentences as the sample text.

/ípáʔ jutʃi lùŋkʰə̀m kʰa nukɹaŋ jim nə̀t uŋtəpa jutʃi/
/təɹ | pa ʉpʉ ənsə̀t/
/nàŋ na ə̀n na aju à saʉəɹ || nàŋ na tʃə̀pʉ̀ mətʃə̀pʉ̀/
/nì na atʃʰən kʰitʃʰaŋ ánʉ́tìla si tʃʰəna waukù/

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:46 pm
by Karch
Mangmetong:

/p t ʦ ʧ k ʔ/ <p t ts j k '>
/pʰ tʰ ʦʰ ʧʰ kʰ/ <ph th ths ch kh>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/m̥ n̥ ŋ̊/ <mh nh ngh>
/s z h/ <s~sh z~zh h>
/w ɹ l j/ <w r l y>
/w̥ ɹ̥ l̥ j̊/ <wh rh lh yh>

/i u ə a a̰/ <i u e a aa>

/á a à/ <á a à>

/wàzàʔ tə̀luʔ la tsəpàʔ məsəm wa || təɹ | kʰə̀liŋlì, təɹ wàzàʔ təniŋ à li || təɹ kʰə̀liŋlìla tʃu, tsəpàʔ məsəməkə ìnti pʰitʰùŋtʃùku, pa mə̀ɹàlà || tə̀pànə wàzàʔ tə̀luʔ səntəpəɹ | pa tələm ku tsə̀pànə tələm tʃu apaktʃuk || təɹ pa tsəpàʔ ku atsə mə̀tʃəməjùʔ || təɹ pa tsəɹ̥ə̀tʰùŋku tsə́ŋí tʃakə "tsə́ŋí tsə́ŋí" tə̀ asaɹə̀ | atʃu ku pa nə ásátʰùŋku, tsəŋi ɹàɹə̀ || təɹ tsəŋi ɹàpàʔ táŋ tʃu | pa səŋàwà aɹa ku kə̀tpàʔ táŋ tʃəmlítʃəmlíʔ waɹuʔ || tə̀ atʃu táŋúʔ || j̊utsə tʃa atʃu/
/wa̰samali | tʰuku táŋ kəməɹ lili | anukàʔ wà̰sasili | tʰuku táŋ kəməɹ lili tə̀tʃʰaɹ.../

Wàzà' tèlu' la tsepà' mesem wa. Ter, khèlinglì, ter wàzà' tening à li. Ter khèlinglìla ju, tsepà' mesemeke ìnti phithùngjùku, pa mèràlà. Tèpàne wàzà' tèlu' senteper, pa telem ku tsèpàne telem ju apakjuk. Ter pa tsepà' ku atse mèjemeyù'. Ter pa tserhèthùngku tséngí jake "tséngí tséngí" tè asarè. Aju ku pa ne ásáthùngku, tsengi ràrè. Ter tsengi ràpà' táng ju, pa sengàwà ara ku kètpà' táng jemlíjemlí' waru'. Tè aju tángú'. Yhutse ja aju.
Waasamali, thuku táng kemer lili, anukà' wààsashili, thuku táng kemer lili tèchar...

Waromung: /ʉ/ <ü> (<ű> with high tone, <ȕ> with low tone)

/ípáʔ jutʃi lùŋkʰə̀m kʰa nukɹaŋ jim nə̀t uŋtəpa jutʃi/
/təɹ | pa ʉpʉ ənsə̀t/
/nàŋ na ə̀n na aju à saʉəɹ || nàŋ na tʃə̀pʉ̀ mətʃə̀pʉ̀/
/nì na atʃʰən kʰitʃʰaŋ ánʉ́tìla si tʃʰəna waukù/

Ípá' yuji Lùngkhèm kha Nukrang yim nèt ungtepa yuji.
Ter, pa üpü ensèt.
Nàng na èn na ayu a saüer. Nàng na jèpȕ mejèpȕ.
Nì na achen khichang ánűtìla shi chena waukù.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:11 pm
by bradrn
A unified orthography:

/p t ʦ ʧ k ʔ/ b d z j g h
/pʰ tʰ ʦʰ ʧʰ kʰ/ p t c q k
/m n ŋ/ m n ng
/m̥ n̥ ŋ̊/ mh nh ngh
/s z h/ s zz hh
/w ɹ l j/ w r l y
/w̥ ɹ̥ l̥ j̊/ wh rh lh yh

/i ʉ u ə a a̰/ i ɨ u e a ạ

Tones: /á a à/ á a à

Mangmetong:

/wàzàʔ tə̀luʔ la tsəpàʔ məsəm wa || təɹ | kʰə̀liŋlì, təɹ wàzàʔ təniŋ à li || təɹ kʰə̀liŋlìla tʃu, tsəpàʔ məsəməkə ìnti pʰitʰùŋtʃùku, pa mə̀ɹàlà || tə̀pànə wàzàʔ tə̀luʔ səntəpəɹ | pa tələm ku tsə̀pànə tələm tʃu apaktʃuk || təɹ pa tsəpàʔ ku atsə mə̀tʃəməjùʔ || təɹ pa tsəɹ̥ə̀tʰùŋku tsə́ŋí tʃakə "tsə́ŋí tsə́ŋí" tə̀ asaɹə̀ | atʃu ku pa nə ásátʰùŋku, tsəŋi ɹàɹə̀ || təɹ tsəŋi ɹàpàʔ táŋ tʃu | pa səŋàwà aɹa ku kə̀tpàʔ táŋ tʃəmlítʃəmlíʔ waɹuʔ || tə̀ atʃu táŋúʔ || j̊utsə tʃa atʃu/
/wa̰samali | tʰuku táŋ kəməɹ lili | anukàʔ wà̰sasili | tʰuku táŋ kəməɹ lili tə̀tʃʰaɹ.../

Wàzzàh dèluh la zebàh mesem wa. Der kèlinglì, der wàzzàh dening à li. Der kèlinglìla ju, zepàh mesemege ìndi pitùngjùgu, ba mèràlà. Dèbàne wàzzàh dèluh senteber, ba delem gu zèbàne delem ju abagjug. Der ba zebàh gu aze mèjemeyùh. Der ba zerhètùnggu zéngí jage “zéngí zéngí” dè asarè, aju gu ba ne ásátùnggu, zengi ràrè. Der zengi ràbàh dáng ju, ba sengàwà ara gu gèdpàh dáng jemlíjemlíh waruh. Dè aju dángú. Yhuze ja aju.
Wạsamali, tugu dáng gemer lili, anugàh wạ̀sasili, tugu dáng gemer lili dèqar…



Waromung:

/ípáʔ jutʃi lùŋkʰə̀m kʰa nukɹaŋ jim nə̀t uŋtəpa jutʃi/
/təɹ | pa ʉpʉ ənsə̀t/
/nàŋ na ə̀n na aju à saʉəɹ || nàŋ na tʃə̀pʉ̀ mətʃə̀pʉ̀/
/nì na atʃʰən kʰitʃʰaŋ ánʉ́tìla si tʃʰəna waukù/

Íbáh yuji lùngkèm ka nugrang yim nèd ungdèba yuji.
Der, ba ɨbɨ ensèd.
Nàng na èn na ayu saɨer. Nàng na jèpɨ̀ mejèpɨ̀.
Nì na aqen kiqang ánɨ́dìla si qena waukù.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:11 am
by bradrn
Mocoví:

/p t tʃ k q ʔ/
/d dʒ~ʒ/
/(ɸ) s ʃ (x) h/
/ɣ ʁ/
/m n ɲ/
/l ʎ/
/r w j/

/a e i o/
/aː eː iː oː/

Phonotactics: syllables are (C)(C)V(C)(C); all consonants but /h/ occur word-initially; all consonants but /d dʒ ʃ tʃ ɲ ʎ h/ occur word-finally; geminates are disallowed.

There’s also a bunch of phonological rules as well (so e.g. /noʔʁatɲi/ → /noʔʁatʃiɲi/, /iritʃaʁ/ → /dʒitʃaq/), but let’s ignore those for now.

Sample text:
Nortaneous wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 1:52 am ʔwoʔ ka naʔɢaʔa ka ʔalo riʔλiwi ke aka leʔya. nata neʔya na moqoyt leʔya waɢayaq. kaʔ leʔya ka yale yawo:take retaɢayaʔpeʔ ka ʔalo. qam yawoːntakoʔ ka ʔalo. qam ka yale renataɢantakoʔ, lakyoʔ ka ʔmaɢare retaɢayapegeʔ ʔaloʔλiʔ. qam ka ʔalo naqayažin ka yale. na:koʔ maʔlepe wi:čiroʔ qam lasom lai sowe:taʔñoʔ, wi:čiroʔ setaɢayaɢatoʔ ke lasom lasom ñiyaʔaʔ. kaʔ ka yale peʔe:toʔ ʔkeoʔ.
(Note: in their transcription, ⟨č ǰ~ž š g ɢ λ y ñ⟩ = /tʃ dʒ~ʒ ʃ ɣ ʁ ʎ j ɲ/, with everything else being as in IPA.)

My attempt:
More: show
/p t tʃ k q ʔ/ ⟨p t c k q h⟩
/d dʒ~ʒ/ ⟨d j⟩
/(ɸ) s ʃ (x) h/ ⟨f s x ħ ħ⟩
/ɣ ʁ/ ⟨ɣ g⟩
/m n ɲ/ ⟨m n ñ⟩
/l ʎ/ ⟨l ll⟩
/r w j/ ⟨r w y⟩

(Yes, I’m using ⟨ħ⟩ for two different sounds; in my defence, neither seems very common, and one is a loan sound.)

/a e i o/ ⟨a e i o⟩
/aː eː iː oː/ ⟨aa ee ii oo⟩

Sample text:
Hwoh ka nahgaha ka halo rihlliwi ke aka lehya. Nata nehya na moqoyt lehya wagayaq. Kah lehya ka yale yawootake retagayahpeh ka halo. Qam yawoontakoh ka halo. Qam ka yale renatagantakoh, lakyoh ka hmagare retagayapeɣeh halohllih. Qam ka halo naqayajin ka yale, naakoh mahlepe wiiciroh qam lasom lai soweetahñoh, wiiciroh setagayagatoh ke lasom lasom ñiyahah. Kah ka yale peheetoh hkeoh.