Zompist Bboard Again

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:02 am I don’t know about French in particular, but in general whispered speech isn’t truly voiceless, but still slightly phonated.

I don't think that's the case. You can check voicing by holding your fingers on the front of your neck. I don't get any voicing while whispering (or uttering unvoiced consonants).

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:27 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:02 am I don’t know about French in particular, but in general whispered speech isn’t truly voiceless, but still slightly phonated.

I don't think that's the case. You can check voicing by holding your fingers on the front of your neck. I don't get any voicing while whispering (or uttering unvoiced consonants).

Hmm, excellent point — this is the case for me too. I guess the misconception was because for a long time I had trouble whispering. Yet one more thing to add to the list of ‘linguistics topics Wikipedia is wrong about’!

To be fair, sometimes when people are "whispering," they're just talking very softly. I prefer to do it that way, as it feels more distinct and audible.

Apparently Finnish has also undergone the high german consonant shift compare Proto Uralic *wete with Finnish *vesi. It's even got the *w > *v change. It's also apparently common amongst all the worlds languages.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:36 pm Apparently Finnish has also undergone the high german consonant shift compare Proto Uralic *wete with Finnish *vesi. It's even got the *w > *v change. It's also apparently common amongst all the worlds languages.

Finnish hasn't undergone the High German shift. The word vesi shows an assibilation of *t before *i, which is also quite a common change which has nothing to do with the High German consonant shift, but also occurs, among others, in Greek.

You should not be so rash to assume such a change based on a single word.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:09 am

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:36 pm Apparently Finnish has also undergone the high german consonant shift compare Proto Uralic *wete with Finnish *vesi. It's even got the *w > *v change. It's also apparently common amongst all the worlds languages.

Finnish hasn't undergone the High German shift. The word vesi shows an assibilation of *t before *i, which is also quite a common change which has nothing to do with the High German consonant shift, but also occurs, among others, in Greek.

You should not be so rash to assume such a change based on a single word.

Someone else made the assumption not me i was clearly joking.

in some russian dialects the digits are named after family members
thumb - grandma
index - grandpa/mum
middle - mum/aunt/father
ring - sister/sonny/grandma
pinkie - bro/daughter
sometimes mixed in with standard nominations

apparently japanese also has alternate terminology where it's a whole family though
thumb: お父さん指 (father)
index: お母さん指 (mother)
middle: お兄さん指 (brother)
ring: お姉さん指 (sister; i missed this one earlier)
pinky: 赤ちゃん指 (baby)

Could someone who's familiar with Armenian tell me if the change of PIE *dw > erk only occurs initially or does it occur elsewhere too?

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:25 am Could someone who's familiar with Albanian tell me if the change of PIE *dw > *erk only occurs initially or does it occur elsewhere too?

I believe that change is from Armenian.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:27 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:25 am Could someone who's familiar with Albanian tell me if the change of PIE *dw > *erk only occurs initially or does it occur elsewhere too?

I believe that change is from Armenian.

Shit. I'll change it.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:25 am Could someone who's familiar with Armenian tell me if the change of PIE *dw > erk only occurs initially or does it occur elsewhere too?

I thought I saw somewhere (in one of Nortaneous’s comments, perhaps?) that it was somewhat dubious and only attested from a single word. Never bothered to investigate it though — I’m no Indo–Europeanist.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:22 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:25 am Could someone who's familiar with Armenian tell me if the change of PIE *dw > erk only occurs initially or does it occur elsewhere too?

I thought I saw somewhere (in one of Nortaneous’s comments, perhaps?) that it was somewhat dubious and only attested from a single word. Never bothered to investigate it though — I’m no Indo–Europeanist.

This change is based on several words. Hock cites:

PIE *dwо̄(w) > Arm. erku 'two'
*dwey > erkiwł 'fear'
*dwāro > erkar 'long'

DeLisi adds *h₁ed-u ̯on- > erkn 'labor pains'.

The original idea goes back to Meillet. Many linguists have decided that these etymologies are spurious-- e.g. Robert Beekes in section 12.4c here.

On the other hand this paper by Jessica DeLisi refutes the refuters and accepts (and explains) the sound change.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:43 am On the other hand this paper by Jessica DeLisi refutes the refuters and accepts (and explains) the sound change.

Very interesting, thanks! Just a pity they felt the need to resort to Optimality Theory…

*does best italian impression*

"Mamma mia actually my grand-nonnas Cionnawhatever cake is made from dough not batter and it is therefore an inappropriate question to ask "what's in the batter" you have disgraced my family"
"Also no cake for you"

(edit) i posted this in the wrong thread

My mind was recently blown when I learned that "atone" is not a Latinate borrowing, but literally just a compound of "at" and "one."

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:05 am My mind was recently blown when I learned that "atone" is not a Latinate borrowing, but literally just a compound of "at" and "one."

Etymonline, though, notes:

Etymonline wrote:The phrase perhaps is modeled on Latin adunare "unite," from ad "to, at" (see ad-) + unum "one."

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:16 am

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:05 am My mind was recently blown when I learned that "atone" is not a Latinate borrowing, but literally just a compound of "at" and "one."

Etymonline, though, notes:

Etymonline wrote:The phrase perhaps is modeled on Latin adunare "unite," from ad "to, at" (see ad-) + unum "one."

So it's basically a calque?

Are Old English and Old Norse actually mutually intelligible? To what degree? I have heard conflicting things.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:17 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:16 am

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:05 am My mind was recently blown when I learned that "atone" is not a Latinate borrowing, but literally just a compound of "at" and "one."

Etymonline, though, notes:

Etymonline wrote:The phrase perhaps is modeled on Latin adunare "unite," from ad "to, at" (see ad-) + unum "one."

So it's basically a calque?

That's what Etymonline suggests.

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:24 pmAre Old English and Old Norse actually mutually intelligible? To what degree? I have heard conflicting things.

I'm not sure how we'd know. I know Prof. Tom Shippey (who spoke both languages) made this argument, but in the absence of empirical evidence or reliable testimony it's a purely speculative one.