Zompist Bboard Again

mèþru wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 6:38 pm I am glad I left this site years ago and am ashamed I have never been banned. Not surprised to see it become an antisemitic cesspool, but am surprised to see the degree to which zompist and linguoboy outright support and encourage it - until late 2023 I have always thought them to be wonderful people. Having my old mèþru identity recorded for posterity as the one who started so many of the daily used threads here fills me revulsion, both from the dysphoria of having abandoned that name and associating it with dark times of my life and what this place has become.

Signed a proud Israeli secular Jew. A left-winger, someone nonbinary and disabled who has found every hobby sphere, every political space, every LGBT alliance I used to participate in to champion the attempted genocide of my people. Am Yisrael Chai motherfuckers.

I want to add my voice in support of the sentiment (if not the way it was expressed).

On October 7 last year, I woke up to a nightmare. Men murdered, women raped, people kidnapped. On one of the happiest days of the Jewish calendar. One of the only bright spots was seeing how sympathetic the members of this forum appeared to be. This was one of the few places online which was, or so I thought.

I see now that that was an illusion. Reading back over those initial posts, I see a tiny amount of obligatory sympathy, mixed in with a large dose of pontificating on ‘hmm, let’s try to work out what kind of brilliant four-dimensional chess move this was’. Apparently, wholesale murder and rape is not the kind of thing which can be condemned without taking care to sympathise with the perpetrators.

Israel’s defense, on the other hand? Oh, clearly we can’t have that. People were very much willing to condemn that unequivocally. And that was merely the start: the twisted morality applied to Israel soon began to show its face, here as elsewhere. The victim became the perpetrator, and justified defense became ‘genocide’. And the victims of October 7? How conveniently and how quickly they were forgotten.

I will say it bluntly: this is antisemitism. It is the taking of Israel’s worst as being representative of the entire country, if not the Jewish people. It is the systemic downplaying of any action opposed to Israel, while magnifying Israel’s faults. And it exists in this forum as much as it does everywhere else.

Honestly, I am lucky here. I am in a position to ignore these things. When I stick to conlanging I find the people here nice enough. On the other hand, Ori (who I will not insult by using their deadname) is not in this position. I have remained in contact with them since they left this forum, and they are suffering. Every online community they belonged to has turned against them. Why is this antisemitism tolerated — nay, actively endorsed by people here? I do not understand it.

(It goes without saying that I will not respond to any replies to this post. Feel free to say whatever you want about me and my views; I no longer care.)

fusijui wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 11:31 pm I thought users and their posting histories have been deleted entirely from this forum before? (Or am I confusing my vile haunts?) Could this be done on your own request?

Ori told me they’ve requested this from zompist, who refused to do it.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 11:55 pm

fusijui wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 11:31 pm I thought users and their posting histories have been deleted entirely from this forum before? (Or am I confusing my vile haunts?) Could this be done on your own request?

Ori told me they’ve requested this from zompist, who refused to do it.

Please do not do this high-school indirection bullshit. I don't recall this request nor do I see it in my PMs, but if Ori (not you) asks I'll be happy to delete their posts and account. (Added: in the mood I'm in, I advise anyone asking for a favor to be polite about it. Why should I help out jerks?)

I'm quite disgusted that criticism of Netanyahu's year-long rampage is called "antisemitism", and that someone who is usually quite reasonable makes it clear that rape and murder are only crimes when they happen to someone of their ethnic group.

As of today, 35 Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli killed by Hamas. And neither of you can figure out why dear old Bibi isn't loved and appreciated for it.

Everybody was disgusted by the Hamas attack. And then disgusted by a year of killing by Netanyahu. And the only explanation you can find is antisemitism. No, it's because the rest of the world doesn't share the vile opinion that Palestinians aren't humans.

/rant mode activated

By Antisemitic cesspool, I assume you're referring to my posts. What I said is that murdering Palestinian civilians because they harbor pro-Hamas sentiments is wrong. Just as wrong as murdering the Israeli civilians who defended the IDF's right to commit rape. It is not wrong for the IDF to kill Hamas fighters. I still stand by that statement. Many religious Jews go much further than me in condemning Israel.

In general, I think national pride is immoral. This applies to Indian and Bengali nationalism as well. I fully condemn Hamas. I only objected to Israel's framing of the conflict as being newly started by Hamas when the UN has reported that there have been provocations and escalations for months. Of course, Zionists say the UN is Antisemitic, but these news stories are in the public record.

What else? I have been accused of spreading "Hamas propaganda". If that refers to the IDF sniping kids, I'm only saying what international doctors working in Gaza have reported. The X-Rays have been published in the New York Times by now. The doctors have also reported they saw no sign of Hamas activity in the hospitals. I'm willing to grant they might have been naive about that in some cases. If the international doctors are all Antisemitic, I will admit I was wrong. I just don't think that's a realistic assessment. The IDF has given me no reason to trust them. The UN has been begging the IDF to stop killing their peacekeepers.

I only post these arguments in response to egregiously cavalier responses to genocide. This toxic discourse has depressed me so much that I have trouble motivating myself to post here these days.

Like I said before, Judaism, along with Tibetan Buddhism, is one of my favorite religions. However, Judaism sucks like all religions. It only sucks less than most religions, including Islam. I particularly admire the Jewish practice of finding loopholes in divine law.

This should go without saying, but I don't support discrimination against Jews, whether they are religious or secular, Zionist or Anti-Zionist. (This statement alone will make large numbers of Anti-Zionist Jews hate me.) I just think they should be held to the same standards as everyone else.

I hate Hamas, not just because they target civilians, but because they spread a toxic ideology that directly harms Muslim apostates like me. I'm just forced to admit that Zionists also violate human rights, and they have more power to get away with doing it.

I could abandon this liberal both-sides-ism and fully get behind Israel's plan to directly target the 400,000 Palestinians left in North Gaza just because Hamas is a violent reactionary gang (who started with an estimated 30k - 40k fighters IIRC). But in that case, I would also abandon secularism and directly call for State Atheism because I regard all religion as reactionary. I would also support the Soviet Union's war against reactionary populations that resulted in heartbreaking casualties. Many of these populations supported White Armies that directly attacked the Soviet Union.

In that case, I wouldn't be a democratic socialist. I would be a Stalinist or Trotskyist.

(I'm so tired.)

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 12:23 am Please do not do this high-school indirection bullshit. I don't recall this request nor do I see it in my PMs, but if Ori (not you) asks I'll be happy to delete their posts and account.

I am only reporting what they told me. I have communicated to them that you said this.

As of today, 35 Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli killed by Hamas. And neither of you can figure out why dear old Bibi isn't loved and appreciated for it.

Thank you for this perfect illustration of what I highlighted: the conflation of Israel’s worst with the views of individual Zionists. How many times have I told you that I loathe Netanyahu? How many times do I need to repeat it before the message sinks in that I want a ceasefire and an end to the war as much as you do? I am sick and tired of seeing my views distorted like this.

Let me repeat it, loud and clear, before I give up in despair:

I loathe Netanyahu. I want a ceasefire and an end to the war as much as you do.

(The rest is outlandish enough as to be beneath reply. You think I defend rape of Palestinians? Seriously? I should hope you’re better than to accuse me of something that despicable.)

There are large numbers of Israeli civilians who support the IDF's right to rape Arabs, apparently. I read this on Israeli news. Even larger numbers support their right to kill Arabs regardless of their complicity with terrorism.

Would it be justified for Hamas to kill these Israeli civilians? If not, stop supporting the IDF's war crimes. No one here has been supporting genocide against Israelis or Jews.

(Well, the fascists might have, but they have been silent since Trumpism has turned against LGBT rights.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 1:02 am

As of today, 35 Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli killed by Hamas. And neither of you can figure out why dear old Bibi isn't loved and appreciated for it.

Thank you for this perfect illustration of what I highlighted: the conflation of Israel’s worst with the views of individual Zionists. How many times have I told you that I loathe Netanyahu? How many times do I need to repeat it before the message sinks in that I want a ceasefire and an end to the war as much as you do? I am sick and tired of seeing my views distorted like this.

Then don't distort my views and endorse other people's distortions. Don't pretend that people don't care about Hamas's attacks just because we also see Netanyahu's attacks. Don't pretend that this loathsome war is "defense".

I loathe Netanyahu. I want a ceasefire and an end to the war as much as you do.

Then why are you characterizing any disagreement with Mighty Lord Netanyahu as antisemitism? Why are you joining in personal attacks on me and linguoboy because we loathe Netanyahu and want a ceasefire and an end to the war?

(The rest is outlandish enough as to be beneath reply. You think I defend rape of Palestinians? Seriously? I should hope you’re better than to accuse me of something that despicable.)

And I seriously hoped you were better than to talk about "rape and murder" when Hamas does them, and not when Netanyahu's army does it. To completely ignore IDF crimes is the way to make people believe you don't think Palestinians are people.

Look, you're conflicted, you're giving off way mixed messages, and I think you have a very human tendency to reflect whoever you were talking to last. But for god's sake try to understand that people are pissed with Netanyahu and this war like you are. Are you antisemitic because of the above statement? Of course not, criticizing Netanyahu is not criticizing the Jews. Deploring war as you just did is not deploring the Jews. So don't fucking pretend it is..

So I am faced with a torturous choice: either I give you all a piece of my mind which will satisfy me for a good two minutes. Or I ignore the topic, keep my opinion to myself, not sow discord on this fine bboard, disavow the tinef on all sides by not speaking about them...

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 2:20 am Look, you're conflicted, you're giving off way mixed messages, and I think you have a very human tendency to reflect whoever you were talking to last. But for god's sake try to understand that people are pissed with Netanyahu and this war like you are. Are you antisemitic because of the above statement? Of course not, criticizing Netanyahu is not criticizing the Jews. Deploring war as you just did is not deploring the Jews. So don't fucking pretend it is..

I don't blame anyone for following the debates on the board and your position has always been clear -- but things got way beyond criticizing Netanyahu. Maybe not quite to the point of deploring the Jews, but pretty damn close to it.

More generally, it's worth pointing out this is a very scary year for Jews. The ZBB is a pretty nice and reasonable place compared to, say, the news. The anti-Zionist discourse, and even pro-Palestinian activism can get very disturbing; and I'm afraid this is only incidentally about Netanyahu.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 12:43 am /rant mode activated

By Antisemitic cesspool, I assume you're referring to my posts.

I don't believe you're an antisemite. But, to be blunt, you probably don't understand the situation as well as you think you do, you're probably listening to people you shouldn't listen to and you are sounding plenty of dog-whistles.
This is true of much of pro-Palestinian activism this past year, I'm afraid, so you're certainly not alone in that.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:14 am you're probably listening to people you shouldn't listen to

Like who, the New York Times, the UN, Israeli newspapers, Anti-Zionist Jews, Ground News...? Who should I distrust? I have never defended Hamas talking points.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:14 am sounding plenty of dog-whistles

I saw an x-ray of the sniped babies in the New York Times. Or do you deny that the IDF shot at people waving white flags? Is Israeli news lying about wanting to starve out the 400k Palestinians in North Gaza?

Give me specifics, because I want to understand.

Jews are not incapable of being fascists. Any human being can fall for palingenetic ultranationalism.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:25 am
Give me specifics, because I want to understand.

We've been over the specifics already. I can explain again, but are you willing to listen?
Last time we talked about the subject you brought up stuff about Talmud quotes, which I mentioned are a) wrong b) doing the rounds in antisemitic circles c) irrelevant to the present-day situation. When I talk about a 'dog whistle', that's exactly the sort of thing I have in mind.
Or when you mention anti-Zionist religious Jews... they're a fringe group nobody should listen to and popular in antisemitic far right circles.

And what's that about "Israeli news"? Glancing at Haaretz and the ToI headlines, I don't read anything about, "wanting to starve out the 400k Palestinians in North Gaza".

Fine. I want to be absolutely clear that none of this justifies Antisemitism in any way. All religions suck. There is infinite scope for interpretation and cherrypicking in all of them. In case Nazis try to argue for genocide based on what I post here, go to hell.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:41 am Last time we talked about the subject you brought up stuff about Talmud quotes, which I mentioned are a) wrong b) doing the rounds in antisemitic circles c) irrelevant to the present-day situation.
When I talk about a 'dog whistle', that's exactly the sort of thing I have in mind.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/201 ... 7f51fd0000

I don't want to go too deep into this because I know Nazis read this forum. I don't want them to get any ammunition from me.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:41 am Or when you mention anti-Zionist religious Jews... they're a fringe group nobody should listen to and popular in antisemitic far right circles.

I was thinking more along the lines of Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, etc.

I don't disrespect religious Anti-Zionist Jews either. Many of them were arrested in Germany for pro-Palestine protests.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:41 am And what's that about "Israeli news"? Glancing at Haaretz and the ToI headlines, I don't read anything about, "wanting to starve out the 400k Palestinians in North Gaza".

https://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-eas ... 1e8a5c0000
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... e59a470000
...

rotting bones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:01 am Fine. I want to be absolutely clear that none of this justifies Antisemitism in any way. All religions suck. There is infinite scope for interpretation and cherrypicking in all of them. In case Nazis try to argue for genocide based on what I post here, go to hell.

Antisemitism is only very incidentally about religion.
Being Jewish is a complex matter, of which religion is only a small part.

I was thinking more along the lines of Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, etc.

I don't disrespect religious Anti-Zionist Jews either. Many of them were arrested in Germany for pro-Palestine protests.

Why talk about "religious Jews" then? Noam Chomsky wasn't religious that I know of.
As for me, what I hear about anti-Zionist religious Jews like Neturei Karta doesn't inspire much respect.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:41 am And what's that about "Israeli news"? Glancing at Haaretz and the ToI headlines, I don't read anything about, "wanting to starve out the 400k Palestinians in North Gaza".

I'm talking about this:

There are large numbers of Israeli civilians who support the IDF's right to rape Arabs, apparently. I read this on Israeli news.

And you bring up this:

https://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-eas ... 1e8a5c0000
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... e59a470000
...

I can only read the title of these articles; the rest is behind a paywall, but this is not at all the same thing. And honestly, this feels a little dishonest.

But I really don't want to debate Israel and the war anymore. What I'm saying is, you have come across as antisemitic in the past. Make of that information what you will.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:26 am I'm talking about this:

There are large numbers of Israeli civilians who support the IDF's right to rape Arabs, apparently. I read this on Israeli news.

And you bring up this:

https://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-eas ... 1e8a5c0000
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... e59a470000
...

I can only read the title of these articles; the rest is behind a paywall, but this is not at all the same thing. And honestly, this feels a little dishonest.

You're talking about a different story. This is the first result, not necessarily the exact story I was thinking of (the thought of shifting through rape apologia depresses me, sorry): https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haa ... df7cab0000

Conflating rape with starvation sounds dishonest to me.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:26 am But I really don't want to debate Israel and the war anymore. What I'm saying is, you have come across as antisemitic in the past. Make of that information what you will.

I think I'm coming across as Antisemitic now. My intentions don't matter. Connecting Israeli war crimes with Judaism could very well inspire a Nazi who reads this to make Jewish civilians suffer. I'm sorry. I'm only doing this because people don't know what they're talking about, and this might be the least bad option.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 2:20 am Don't pretend that this loathsome war is "defense".

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. This war is defense, or at least it was when it started. To deny that is… well, it’s quite simply baffling to me. What else was Israel supposed to do? Sit and wait for Hamas to commit another atrocity?

(Note that I said ‘when it started’. I can’t support the war as it continues now. And now that Sinwar is finally dead there is no reason for it to continue.)

I loathe Netanyahu. I want a ceasefire and an end to the war as much as you do.

Then why are you characterizing any disagreement with Mighty Lord Netanyahu as antisemitism? Why are you joining in personal attacks on me and linguoboy because we loathe Netanyahu and want a ceasefire and an end to the war?

It’s not the disagreement with Netanyahu which I have an issue with. If anything, that marks you as being sane.

The antisemitism comes in with the things I mentioned earlier — ‘the systemic downplaying of any action opposed to Israel, while magnifying Israel’s faults’. Israel is not above criticism (far from it!), but people say things about it which they would never say about any other country doing the same actions. Even beyond that, I’ve seen people repeatedly endorse antisemitic behaviour, especially regarding student protests but also elsewhere.

Or, to put it another way: the antisemitism we experience is (mostly) not clear and obvious, but covert. There is always an excuse for any particular thing someone happens to say, but the collective effect of all the bias and dogwhistling and dismissal is enormous.

(The rest is outlandish enough as to be beneath reply. You think I defend rape of Palestinians? Seriously? I should hope you’re better than to accuse me of something that despicable.)

And I seriously hoped you were better than to talk about "rape and murder" when Hamas does them, and not when Netanyahu's army does it. To completely ignore IDF crimes is the way to make people believe you don't think Palestinians are people.

What are you talking about here? I’ve seen no reports of rape by IDF soldiers, although I suppose they must exist, simply because such horrors happen in every war.

Let me put my point this way: all rape is evil. All rape in warfare is a war crime, whether of Palestinians or of Israelis. However, I am not aware of any institutionalised policy of the IDF to encourage mass rape — quite the contrary, I would expect the IDF to prosecute it as a crime to the fullest extent of their ability. But not only did Hamas encourage rape, its members freely bragged about the sickening things they did. To suggest that this is equivalent to crimes which may have been committed by individual IDF soldiers is antisemitism indeed.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:36 am https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haa ... df7cab0000

Important context: the person mentioned in the article is a now-dead singer who 50 years ago was sentenced to prison for rape. Nothing whatsoever to do with Palestinians.

(God, this is a depressing conversation.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:53 am

rotting bones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:36 am https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haa ... df7cab0000

Important context: the person mentioned in the article is a now-dead singer who 50 years ago was sentenced to prison for rape. Nothing whatsoever to do with Palestinians.

(God, this is a depressing conversation.)

Ok.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... fb6d1d0000

I realize I've always had a strange sense of time...but it barely feels like five months since I saw the Breaking News that Hamas had attacked Israel with great violence.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:53 am. And now that Sinwar is finally dead there is no reason for it to continue.)

let us hope so.

I'm only going to talk about one specific aspect of this ongoing debate, namely the complaint by bradrn that people are conflating the worst of Israel with all of Israel. This strikes me as a symptom of an attitude that seems to be all to common among diaspora Jews, especially in the USA, but apparently elsewhere, too: the attitude of supporting a fantasy Israel that exists only inside their own heads, while opposing what the actual Israel is actually doing.

Yes, I know, a country is not its government. But everything that observers of Israeli politics should be able to see indicates that the Netanyahu Government is an expression of Israel's dominant long-term political trends. The Right has been governing Israel for the vast majority of the time since Begin first won election, and the demographic breakdown of political polls is clear: the future is ever more far-right. And I don't see how that can be turned back. Israel is a hopeless case.

(Besides, as someone living outside Israel who, without being Jewish, is still a potential target for antisemitism, I'm personally offended by the way all too many leading Israelis these days feel the need to a) act as alibi Jews for right-wing antisemites, and b) talk like right-wing antisemites themselves. See their Prime Minister, their Prime Minister's son, their Minister of Diaspora Affairs, and their Ambassador to the United Kingdom.)

Oh, and bradrn: If, as you say, you hate Netanyahu and oppose the war, then - and you probably know that - there are people in the world who would accuse you of antisemitism if they were here now. You might want to keep that in mind when you're about to make the same accusation against other people for the same reason.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 7:25 am I'm only going to talk about one specific aspect of this ongoing debate, namely the complaint by brardn that people are conflating the worst of Israel with all of Israel. This strikes me as a symptom of an attitude that seems to be all to common among diaspora Jews, especially in the USA, but apparently elsewhere, too: the attitude of supporting a fantasy Israel that exists only inside their own heads, while opposing what the actual Israel is actually doing.

I'm not Jewish myself. But I often encounter the idea that Israel is illegitimate, shouldn't exist, and should never have existed. This is an increasingly prevalent sentiment, or maybe it's more openly expressed, or maybe I notice it more than I used too. In any case, yes, it's disturbing.

(...) Israel is a hopeless case.

Israel might be an hopeless case; but if so, I have a long list of hopeless countries. Italy is pretty hopeless; France is hopeless too; honestly the United States are pretty hopeless and we'll have to give up all hope for Germany soon.
Once we've given up all hope, what are we supposed to do next?

More generally, of course people can care for and support a country while disagreeing with almost everything its government is doing.
I don't 'support' France, nor do you (I suppose) support Germany in that way... but absolutely no one is questioning France or Germany's existence. What (most) Jews are doing is defending Israel's right to exist, not its current government.

On antisemitism. Well, it's not just about the ZBB, it's a more general trend that seems to affect every Western country. I think pretty much every Jewish voice I hear (including liberal ones) is talking about growing antisemitism -- at some point, yes, we have to listen.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:04 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 7:25 am I'm only going to talk about one specific aspect of this ongoing debate, namely the complaint by brardn that people are conflating the worst of Israel with all of Israel. This strikes me as a symptom of an attitude that seems to be all to common among diaspora Jews, especially in the USA, but apparently elsewhere, too: the attitude of supporting a fantasy Israel that exists only inside their own heads, while opposing what the actual Israel is actually doing.

I'm not Jewish myself. But I often encounter the idea that Israel is illegitimate, shouldn't exist, and should never have existed. This is an increasingly prevalent sentiment, or maybe it's more openly expressed, or maybe I notice it more than I used too. In any case, yes, it's disturbing.

To some extent, it is, but I've got the impression that Israel, in practice, can only exist by keeping millions of people as disenfranchised subjects. That makes its "right to exist" a different thing from the existence of many other countries.

(...) Israel is a hopeless case.

Israel might be an hopeless case; but if so, I have a long list of hopeless countries. Italy is pretty hopeless; France is hopeless too; honestly the United States are pretty hopeless and we'll have to give up all hope for Germany soon.
Once we've given up all hope, what are we supposed to do next?

More generally, of course people can care for and support a country while disagreeing with almost everything its government is doing.
I don't 'support' France, nor do you (I suppose) support Germany in that way... but absolutely no one is questioning France or Germany's existence. What (most) Jews are doing is defending Israel's right to exist, not its current government.

See my previous comment in this post. At some point, you can't support a country without supporting that country's actions.

On antisemitism. Well, it's not just about the ZBB, it's a more general trend that seems to affect every Western country. I think pretty much every Jewish voice I hear (including liberal ones) is talking about growing antisemitism -- at some point, yes, we have to listen.

No disagreement. You might remember that I got in some trouble on this board a while ago when I said that, while I don't support Israel, I can't support the pro-Palestinian movement while it includes the people it currently includes. But "listening" does not always mean "agreeing". It's a tricky balancing act, but I think most people on the ZBB are pretty good at balancing this.