Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:28 pmDon't forget English agh /ɑːx/ and ugh /ʌx/, which are words with very similar meanings and are practically sole survivors of /x/ outside of Scottish English, Hiberno-English, and recent loanwords, and are almost certainly onomatopoeic in nature.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:26 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:28 pmDon't forget English agh /ɑːx/ and ugh /ʌx/, which are words with very similar meanings and are practically sole survivors of /x/ outside of Scottish English, Hiberno-English, and recent loanwords, and are almost certainly onomatopoeic in nature.

For me ugh is an interjection with the spelling pronunciation /ʌg/ distinct from the onomatopoeic expression of disgust I mentioned earlier.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:51 pmI have both /ʌx/ and /ʌg/ myself, and the two are not synonymous. The former is more an instinctive interjection I would make upon tasting something disgusting, while the latter is what I would generally respond to someone else with in sympathetically expressing displeasure with something they recounted.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:47 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:51 pmI have both /ʌx/ and /ʌg/ myself, and the two are not synonymous. The former is more an instinctive interjection I would make upon tasting something disgusting, while the latter is what I would generally respond to someone else with in sympathetically expressing displeasure with something they recounted.

Same here. Additionally, the pronunciation of the vowel in /ʌx/ shows considerable range, with [ɪ], [ɛ], [ɐ], etc. all being acceptable variants. (Yes, I have been sitting here for a minute or so making different sounds of disgust and judging their acceptability to my ear.)

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:57 pm There is a distinctive (in the ordinary sense, not phonologically distinctive) phonetic quality to the vowels of a lot of South Asian languages, both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian, but I can't seem to figure out what it actually is. To stoop to the level of pure subjective description, the vowels feel particularly "springy" or "rubbery" to me. This is especially pronounced with the vowel usually romanized as <a> and transcribed as [ɐ], which has a similar quality across many languages of the region but sounds distinct to me from any [ɐ] I've heard in other context. This video demonstrates the pronunciations I'm talking about pretty well.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:06 am Curiously her /a/ sounds almost back to me, like [ʊ]. It doesn't sound as lax as English [ə], but that may be because she's emphasizing it.

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:37 pm Talking about things difficult to hear, I find it amusing how I (as a Spanish speaker) find it very hard to hear the distinction between /p b/ /t d/ /k g/ in Indonesian intervocalically. I just hear [ b d g], e.g. Jakarta sounds like [dʒagarta] to me. Shouldn't I at least be biased towards hearing [p t k], due to speaking a language with voiceless /p t k/ with a very low Voice Onset Time? But nope, it's not what I expected. I don't know how Indonesians distinguish them (at least those from Jakarta, I heard this from videos of a YouTuber interviewing random people + careful recordings on a website for learners) but there seems to be something weird going on. Probably [±ARGH], as Nortaneus used to say.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:56 pm In Spanish, though, don't you natively have [β ð ɣ] intervocalically for /b d g/, meaning you don't actually have a native intervocalic contrast between [p t k] and [b d g]? (And knowing NAE doesn't help either as in NAE the perceived voicing of intervocalic stops is heavily informed by preceding vowel length.)

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:18 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:56 pm In Spanish, though, don't you natively have [β ð ɣ] intervocalically for /b d g/, meaning you don't actually have a native intervocalic contrast between [p t k] and [b d g]? (And knowing NAE doesn't help either as in NAE the perceived voicing of intervocalic stops is heavily informed by preceding vowel length.)

It is also a well-known fact that many speakers of Romance languages do not perceive Germanic /b d g/ as fully voiced. Apparently, voicing is much more prominent in Romance than in Germanic; also, Germanic voiceless stops are aspirated in some positions while Romance ones are not.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:48 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:18 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:56 pm In Spanish, though, don't you natively have [β ð ɣ] intervocalically for /b d g/, meaning you don't actually have a native intervocalic contrast between [p t k] and [b d g]? (And knowing NAE doesn't help either as in NAE the perceived voicing of intervocalic stops is heavily informed by preceding vowel length.)

It is also a well-known fact that many speakers of Romance languages do not perceive Germanic /b d g/ as fully voiced. Apparently, voicing is much more prominent in Romance than in Germanic; also, Germanic voiceless stops are aspirated in some positions while Romance ones are not.

Germanic except Afrikaans, right? For example, here, "kind" sounds to me like "gunt".

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:48 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:18 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:56 pm In Spanish, though, don't you natively have [β ð ɣ] intervocalically for /b d g/, meaning you don't actually have a native intervocalic contrast between [p t k] and [b d g]? (And knowing NAE doesn't help either as in NAE the perceived voicing of intervocalic stops is heavily informed by preceding vowel length.)

It is also a well-known fact that many speakers of Romance languages do not perceive Germanic /b d g/ as fully voiced. Apparently, voicing is much more prominent in Romance than in Germanic; also, Germanic voiceless stops are aspirated in some positions while Romance ones are not.

Germanic except Afrikaans, right? For example, here, "kind" sounds to me like "gunt".

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:48 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:18 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:56 pm In Spanish, though, don't you natively have [β ð ɣ] intervocalically for /b d g/, meaning you don't actually have a native intervocalic contrast between [p t k] and [b d g]? (And knowing NAE doesn't help either as in NAE the perceived voicing of intervocalic stops is heavily informed by preceding vowel length.)

It is also a well-known fact that many speakers of Romance languages do not perceive Germanic /b d g/ as fully voiced. Apparently, voicing is much more prominent in Romance than in Germanic; also, Germanic voiceless stops are aspirated in some positions while Romance ones are not.

Germanic except Afrikaans, right? For example, here, "kind" sounds to me like "gunt".

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:48 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:02 am Germanic except Afrikaans, right? For example, here, "kind" sounds to me like "gunt".

Are you referring to the word at 1:08? It sounds like [kɨnt] to me, so unaspirated and with final devoicing — but hard to tell since they’re all singing together. (And singing in and of itself might change things.) Also, there’s another occurrence at 1:25 which sounds like it might be aspirated [kʰɨnt].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:18 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:48 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:02 am Germanic except Afrikaans, right? For example, here, "kind" sounds to me like "gunt".

Are you referring to the word at 1:08? It sounds like [kɨnt] to me, so unaspirated and with final devoicing — but hard to tell since they’re all singing together. (And singing in and of itself might change things.) Also, there’s another occurrence at 1:25 which sounds like it might be aspirated [kʰɨnt].

I hear it as both [k] and [kʰ] in different places, but I don't perceive it as /g/, even though I normally perceive unaspirated initial stops as lenis (for instance, in a recording of "pasta" in Italian I heard somewhere, I don't remember where exactly, I heard it as starting with a clear /b/). As for the vowel, I perceive as akin to my native English /ɪ/, which is [ɘ]. As for the final stop, I don't perceive it as specifically /t/ or /d/, which is probably due to final unglottalized voiceless stops when not preceded by a clearly short or long vowel (which may be separated from it by a sonorant) being unspecified for lenisness versus fortisness for me.