Zompist Bboard Again

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 10:44 am I was linked to this wonderfully refreshing view of the whole situation: 50 Completely True Things (by a Palestinian American).

Very good indeed!

that link's author wrote:The solution to the Middle East conflict will not be found on Threads, or TikTok, or in the streets of any city that isn’t within a 2-hour car ride from downtown Jerusalem.

street protests and popular disapproval of the whole thing were important in the dissolution of the south african apartheid regime, though: international pressure does not weigh zero. feels like this guy is selling out the lives of palestinians for civility tbh.

Torco wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 10:39 am

that link's author wrote:The solution to the Middle East conflict will not be found on Threads, or TikTok, or in the streets of any city that isn’t within a 2-hour car ride from downtown Jerusalem.

street protests and popular disapproval of the whole thing were important in the dissolution of the south african apartheid regime, though: international pressure does not weigh zero. feels like this guy is selling out the lives of palestinians for civility tbh.

Perhaps, but we only got an actual solution to the problem when Mandela and De Klerk (and others) sat down and worked out a plan. Protests are all well and good, but don’t mistake them for a solution. A solution can happen only through the effort of the people involved in the problem itself.

well, yeah, but without the international and public pressure would there have been a solution at all? the "solution" might have been "south africa has a right to exist as an afrikaaner white ethnostate" without it.

I don't think that means people should stop protesting, or debate on <insert social network of your choice>

But actual solutions or peace plans will be found by people who are directly involved and knowledgeable about the issue. We're not going to come up with a peace settlement and constitution here on the ZBB, are we?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 3:25 am I don't think that means people should stop protesting, or debate on <insert social network of your choice>

But actual solutions or peace plans will be found by people who are directly involved and knowledgeable about the issue. We're not going to come up with a peace settlement and constitution here on the ZBB, are we?

I don't think anyone would object if we did.


(heck, even if we only came up with one of the two)

Sigh. Without religious autism jews would have been given parts of germany similar to poland and the czech republic.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 3:59 am Sigh. Without religious autism jews would have been given parts of germany similar to poland and the czech republic.

Wha??

Not sure what religious autism is - (do you mean autonomy?) - but I don't see why you think the Jewish people would have been awarded part of Germany at any point.

keenir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 5:14 am but I don't see why you think the Jewish people would have been awarded part of Germany at any point.

The idea seems to be quite popular as a kind of thought game among some people these days, but I don't see who would have made such a decision in the 1940s, either.

Torco wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 10:39 am feels like this guy is selling out the lives of palestinians for civility tbh.

Same. And the whole "we're all really from Africa" is the "All Lives Matter" defence of settler colonialism.

I also don't know that I buy his arguments about geopolitics. It's not inevitable that a Palestinian state will exist at some point and the Israeli state can be destroyed against the wishes of the Israeli populace just as surely as the original kingdom was. Moreover, if any group gets self-determination once they reach a certain size, where are we going to found that Queertopian state I've been wanting all my life?

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 12:03 pm

Torco wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 10:39 am feels like this guy is selling out the lives of palestinians for civility tbh.

Same. And the whole "we're all really from Africa" is the "All Lives Matter" defence of settler colonialism.

As for 'selling out the lives of palestinians', I really don't see what it's about. I'm pretty sure I read the list twice, but maybe somehow I missed the part where he calls for killing all Palestinians?

As for the other point, about who is indigenous... I think you might be missing the point. This is in direct response to claims that either Jews are white Europeans or Khazars or whatever -- and to claims that there's no such thing as Palestinians, that they're Jordanians or Egyptians or whatnot.

There is something noteworthy and sad about Palestinians and Israeli Jews being as closely related as they are.

Personally, I believe Israelis belong where they are by virtue of being born there, their parents or grandparents being kicked out of just about anywhere else on Earth. Palestinians belong there for the exact same reason.

I also don't know that I buy his arguments about geopolitics. It's not inevitable that a Palestinian state will exist at some point and the Israeli state can be destroyed against the wishes of the Israeli populace just as surely as the original kingdom was. Moreover, if any group gets self-determination once they reach a certain size, where are we going to found that Queertopian state I've been wanting all my life?

I have no idea what is going to happen. I don't think anyone really knows. I do know how I'd like things to be, and yeah there being a Palestinian state alongside Israel seems like a possible, ethical outcome; though again any solution has to be worked out by both Israeli and Palestinians, and I've found ideas about federations / confederation at least interesting enough.
I've read calls for immediate, or at least very sped up recognition of a Palestinian state and while I'm not knowledgeable enough to guess how it'd work out, I think the arguments were convincing enough.

What are more radical folks in favor of?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 1:42 pm As for the other point, about who is indigenous... I think you might be missing the point. This is in direct response to claims that either Jews are white Europeans or Khazars or whatever -- and to claims that there's no such thing as Palestinians, that they're Jordanians or Egyptians or whatnot.

One thing that people forget is that many Israeli Jews aren't White Europeans but rather are Mizrahi, originally Arabic-speaking Jews who had been living amongst Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs for centuries before they were for all practical intents and purposes expelled after 1948, and had nowhere to go other than Israel.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 1:42 pmAs for 'selling out the lives of palestinians', I really don't see what it's about. I'm pretty sure I read the list twice, but maybe somehow I missed the part where he calls for killing all Palestinians?

Now I've read this several times and I can't quite tell if you're being disingenuous or not.

Absent sustained intense pressure not to, Israel will continue to kill Palestinians en masse. Thus any rhetoric which appears to advocate for reducing pressure on Israel will likely lead to the deaths of more Palestinians than rhetoric which advocates for maintaining or increasing that pressure. This opinion piece contains such rhetoric.

Ares Land wrote:As for the other point, about who is indigenous... I think you might be missing the point. This is in direct response to claims that either Jews are white Europeans or Khazars or whatever -- and to claims that there's no such thing as Palestinians, that they're Jordanians or Egyptians or whatnot.

Yeah, no, I don't think I am. The net effect of this particular turn of phrase is to nullify Palestinian claims to land they've been dispossessed of within living memory and exonerate those responsible for taking it from them.

Ares Land wrote:Personally, I believe Israelis belong where they are by virtue of being born there, their parents or grandparents being kicked out of just about anywhere else on Earth. Palestinians belong there for the exact same reason.

But where is "there" exactly? Many Israelis (not well-represented in the current government, apparently) seem to grudgingly accept the right of Palestinians to occupy some territory within historical Palestine as long as it's not any of the bits they currently own or want to own (or might want to own in future). I'm not really sure how that's any better than having no rights at all.

Ares Land wrote:What are more radical folks in favor of?

I'm in favour of Israel not forcing another half million displaced persons out of the one place left they've been able to find some shelter and humanitarian aid before bombing the living shit out of the remnants of Gazan infrastructure. Is that radical; I dunno. Maybe once 1.4 million people aren't cowering in absolute terror for their lives we can talk about what a future solution might look like.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 2:05 pmOne thing that people forget is that many Israeli Jews aren't White Europeans but rather are Mizrahi, originally Arabic-speaking Jews who had been living amongst Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs for centuries before they were for all practical intents and purposes expelled after 1948, and had nowhere to go other than Israel.

Yeah, I feel really terrible for the fact that they're forced to live in overcrowded refugee camps without access to adequate sanitation or clean water and are almost wholly dependent on outside aid to survive since they lack freedom of movement and almost any kind of productive employment. Someone should do something about that.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 3:11 pm Now I've read this several times and I can't quite tell if you're being disingenuous or not.

Absent sustained intense pressure not to, Israel will continue to kill Palestinians en masse. Thus any rhetoric which appears to advocate for reducing pressure on Israel will likely lead to the deaths of more Palestinians than rhetoric which advocates for maintaining or increasing that pressure. This opinion piece contains such rhetoric.

I admit there was a bit of snark, but yeah I didn't really see your point or Torco's and it's now much clearer.

I still disagree... but I think we've all sort of made our point at length on that and people aren't going to change their mind at this stage.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 3:47 am I didn't really see your point or Torco's and it's now much clearer.

Could you perhaps explain it to me, then? I still don’t really see how any of what they’re saying makes much sense.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 4:18 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 3:47 am I didn't really see your point or Torco's and it's now much clearer.

Could you perhaps explain it to me, then? I still don’t really see how any of what they’re saying makes much sense.

I don't know if I'll be any good at that sort of thing!

The idea is that given the situation, there's no place for anything but no holds barred condemnation of Israel and that nothing else will do in stopping Israel from doing what it's doing in Gaza, through pressure from world governments or pressure from world opinion or both.

I could go on at some length on why I disagree with that, but I don't think anything else I say is going to convince people

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 4:33 am The idea is that given the situation, there's no place for anything but no holds barred condemnation of Israel and that nothing else will do in stopping Israel from doing what it's doing in Gaza, through pressure from world governments or pressure from world opinion or both.

I could go on at some length on why I disagree with that, but I don't think anything else I say is going to convince people

Yes, I feel quite the same way about this line of argument. It’s quite frustrating, because it’s leading people to condone stuff which puts me in danger, and I don’t know how they can’t see that.

[EDIT: removed some irrelevant further comments]

do we need to defend the institution of the protest itself no? man, that's dystopian. Okay: it has been the case throughout history that international pressure sometimes works in dissuading states from particular lines of policy: it is, after all, a Bad Thing for any state to have a very bad international reputation and while a country that's sufficiently big and economically diversified blabla can take it, it's never going to enjoy it.

From the perspective of non-policymakers (i.e. not the rulers, but this paragraph is going for a sort of beigist technocratspeak aesthetic). Given a situation that falls under article two of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide the only way increased likelyhood of good outcomes can be effected, barring the extraordinary, is to make it as expensive as possible for the state in question to continue pursuing the aforementioned lines of policy. To then invite one's reader to avoid engaging in behaviours pursuant to increasing the costs paid by the relevant country or countries is to, basically, effect a change in the situation's incentive structure that will directly increase the likelyhood the actors in violation of article two continue to pursue the lines of action leading to the problematic outcomes.

it makes it cheaper to do genocide, is what it does. so yeah, guy's -throughout falsely saying protest does nothing- inviting an attitude of normalization of the genocide: this promotes genocide. which is bad: but it's not a genocide! whatever, it makes more palestinians die the more effective it is: the more people normalize the genocide, the less des-incentivized killing them becomes. which, yeah, if you do it to your own people, is the kind of thing ordinarily meant by selling your people out.... none of this shit is normal. least it shouldn't be, and we get to decide that's normal.

I don't think that guy was against the idea of protests or saying protests do nothing though.

Now we can object to the content of the protest, ie what some of the protesters happen to be currently doing or saying... But it's another debate that we've already had and again, I'm pretty sure no one's going to change their mind at this point.