Zompist Bboard Again

I don't think so - second syllable stress is just the natural default for classical loanwords, which is what 'biopic' looks like (note that it has a different vowel from -opic). Consider, for instance, the parallel of "priapic" or "phonemic", and so on. Even words that were never actually classical, like "balletic".

I too instinctively have second syllable stress, and am uncertain, having learned the etymology, whether I should change it. Fortunately, the word never arises in conversation.

Estav wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:55 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:34 pm
Consider the case of the word biology, i.e. /baɪˈɒlədʒi/, which follows a stress on the <o> of <bio> as well.

Biology is a Greek-type compound ending in CVCy; these are expected to get antepenult stress. Stress on the second syllable of biopic is unexpected because, as dhok mentioned, the "pic" part is from the English word "pic" < "picture", so it would be expected to have tertiary stress (and accordingly, primary stress should fall on the "bi"). Compare biochip. I agree with Pabappa that influence from -opic is likely a cause of the pronunciation with penult stress.

TIL. I, too, have second syllable stress. Initial stress sounds ugly, though, so I'll continue to pretend that the second syllable stress is appropriate.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:31 pm I don't think so - second syllable stress is just the natural default for classical loanwords, which is what 'biopic' looks like (note that it has a different vowel from -opic). Consider, for instance, the parallel of "priapic" or "phonemic", and so on. Even words that were never actually classical, like "balletic".

Priapic and phonemic are a bit different. They were formed by combining some base (depending on the analysis, you could say Priapus or Priap-) with the derivational adjective-forming suffix -ic. Words ending in the suffix -ic take penultimate stress (with a small number of exceptions) for unclear reasons. Actual compounds like biosphere, microscope, photograph don’t take penult stress on linking o as a rule.

Different people have different vowels in “myopic” etc. I guess you mean that you use goat here?

Estav wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:02 pm

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:31 pm I don't think so - second syllable stress is just the natural default for classical loanwords, which is what 'biopic' looks like (note that it has a different vowel from -opic). Consider, for instance, the parallel of "priapic" or "phonemic", and so on. Even words that were never actually classical, like "balletic".

Priapic and phonemic are a bit different. They were formed by combining some base (depending on the analysis, you could say Priapus or Priap-) with the derivational adjective-forming suffix -ic. Words ending in the suffix -ic take penultimate stress (with a small number of exceptions) for unclear reasons. Actual compounds like biosphere, microscope, photograph don’t take penult stress on linking o as a rule.

However, microscopy, photography, etc, do take stress on the second syllable.

In any case, that's not my point - my point is that second-syllable stress is the natural way to pronounc 'biopic', based on its form. You want to replacy my first attempt at a form-based rule (second syllable in words that look classical) with a narrower and no doubt more accurate rule (penultimate syllabic in words ending -ic), but that's still a rule. Until people realise that 'biopic' is 'bio+pic' and not the more formally likely 'biop+ic', it would seem like your rule should still apply. So ad hoc analogy specifically to the word 'myopic' is not required as an explanation.

Different people have different vowels in “myopic” etc. I guess you mean that you use goat here?

Yes, although I suppose I could use LOT without fuss.

I for one have LOT in both myopic and biopic.

The classics:
* anti- (as in anticommunist, antiseptic, antidepressant)
* multi- (as in multilingual, and the distinct "multiverse")
* bi- (as in bidirectional, bisexual)
* di- (as in dihydrogen monoxide)

Is there any pattern on who uses which pronunciation of the -i-?

Ser wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:07 pm The classics:
* anti- (as in anticommunist, antiseptic, antidepressant)
* multi- (as in multilingual, and the distinct "multiverse")
* bi- (as in bidirectional, bisexual)
* di- (as in dihydrogen monoxide)

Is there any pattern on who uses which pronunciation of the -i-?

As far as I know,

PRICE in anti- and multi- is more common in American English than in British English.

PRICE is not an option for anti- in any word where the syllable is stressed, as in anˈtiphony, anˈtipathy, anˈtiphrasis, anˈtithesis, anˈtinomy (although some people might (mis)pronounce these words with a different stress pattern).

I've never heard any UK person use anything other than /i/ for anti- and multi- and /aI/ for bi- and di-.

EDIT: OK, I think I've heard /aI/ in "anti" as an independent word, and perhaps in some coinages that are clearly hyphenated, especially if they seem like American words.

Wiktionary has /ˈæn.tə.dot/ for <antidote> (marked as US, British is not given). Is this an anomaly for just that word, or more common?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:17 am Wiktionary has /ˈæn.tə.dot/ for <antidote> (marked as US, British is not given). Is this an anomaly for just that word, or more common?


JAL

I'd say it's because "-dote" is not a free morpheme. The pronunciation of "anti-" with the PRICE vowel is used specifically for the (relatively) productive prefix, not just for any words that start with the letters "anti" (and not even for all words that etymologically contain that prefix). Compare the difference between the pronunciation of the productive prefix "re-" in words like "reseal" or "reroll" with the pronunciation of "re-" in words like report or reduce.

Whatever my distribution is for the two variants of anti- and multi-, it's a mess. It's hard to think of examples where only one choice sounds acceptable, though I often have a definite preference (e.g. /ai/ in anti-establishment and multinational (n.)). You'd have to elicit me unawares to get any idea what my default distribution is.

Antifa for me has /i/ because it looks Spanish. Anti, as a word by itself, and when part of a hyphenated word, has /ai/. E.g. "an anti-inflammatory agent" is with /ai/ .

Estav wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:25 am

jal wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:17 am Wiktionary has /ˈæn.tə.dot/ for <antidote> (marked as US, British is not given). Is this an anomaly for just that word, or more common?

I'd say it's because "-dote" is not a free morpheme.

.yes . also note that it has a schwa, not even an /i/, because I think people don't think of the etymology.

Bi- and Di- are always with /ai/ in words I can think of. I thought adiabatic was a counterexample, But it has the unrelated dia- instead (ive also heard the rarer word diabatic, a jargon term i guess, with both pronuncs).

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:44 amAntifa for me has /i/ because it looks Spanish.

/iː/ for me as well because I learned it in Germany. I've only recently gotten used to seeing it in an English-language context. This is one word where using /ai/ sounds completely wrong.

Ser wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:07 pm The classics:
* anti- (as in anticommunist, antiseptic, antidepressant)
* multi- (as in multilingual, and the distinct "multiverse")
* bi- (as in bidirectional, bisexual)
* di- (as in dihydrogen monoxide)

Is there any pattern on who uses which pronunciation of the -i-?

I have /i/ or /ɪ/ in anti except when used as an independent word. I have /ai/ in bi- and di- in all cases. I pronounce Antifa [ˈkɹ̱ˁʷɛɪ̯zi ˈfæʃɪsts]...

As for "bi-" and "di-" as far as I know all varieties of English use /aI/ in those words. Never heard of /i:/ being used there by English speakers.

Space60 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:51 amAs for "bi-" and "di-" as far as I know all varieties of English use /aI/ in those words. Never heard of /i:/ being used there by English speakers.

I can't think of any exceptions for bi- (which--English being English--probably means I'm just not thinking hard enough), but I normally say diverge, divergent, and divergence with /ɪ/. Same for diverse and its derivatives (e.g. diversification).

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:10 amI can't think of any exceptions for bi- (which--English being English--probably means I'm just not thinking hard enough)

Bigamy?

Vijay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:00 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:10 amI can't think of any exceptions for bi- (which--English being English--probably means I'm just not thinking hard enough)

Bigamy?

this may well be the only one. Good catch. I suspect any other examples will be of the same type ... 3 syllables with stress on the prefix. Possibly more if it's e.g. "*bigamosity" and derived from a shorter stem.

Oh, there's also binaural, if you include that as having bi-.

And for di- there is diphthong, diptych, and perhaps other diCC- words. How did we all miss "diphthong"? ..... Diphtheria is not known to have di-.

Also, the diver words .... i say all those with /ai/, but i interpreted the question to be specifically about di- meaning 2, and not the di- that appears as a variant of dis-.

-ally, as in literally