Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:48 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:21 am (Looks like you forgot to transcribe no todori — the IPA jumps straight from isĭwokori to ni sŏfuru. If you fix this I’ll edit my post.)

Should be fixed now. I should note also that the vowels have rounding already, but it's compressed and endolabial, if that affects anything you're imagining.

(Also, only one of these changes do I find areally unlikely, and that's the emergence of [k͡p].)

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:18 am**

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:48 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:21 am (Looks like you forgot to transcribe no todori — the IPA jumps straight from isĭwokori to ni sŏfuru. If you fix this I’ll edit my post.)
Should be fixed now.

Thanks!

I should note also that the vowels have rounding already, but it's compressed and endolabial, if that affects anything you're imagining.

Well, change (2) turns compression into rounding, so I don’t see how this affects anything.

(Also, only one of these changes do I find areally unlikely,

Good to know! I worked on the principle of mushifying it as much as possible. I hate the result.

and that's the emergence of [k͡p].)

Well, what else could possibly happen to [kᵝ]?

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:21 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:18 am
I should note also that the vowels have rounding already, but it's compressed and endolabial, if that affects anything you're imagining.
Well, change (2) turns compression into rounding, so I don’t see how this affects anything.

I just thought I should probably note it in case you wanted a take-backsie.

(Also, only one of these changes do I find areally unlikely,
Good to know! I worked on the principle of mushifying it as much as possible. I hate the result.

I think it hates you, too!

and that's the emergence of [k͡p].)
Well, what else could possibly happen to [kᵝ]?

It would probably just end up [k] or [p]; areal features will probably crush the poor thing into a geminate.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:36 am**

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:21 am

(Also, only one of these changes do I find areally unlikely,
Good to know! I worked on the principle of mushifying it as much as possible. I hate the result.
I think it hates you, too!

Don’t worry, next time I’ll balance it out by adding all those horrible nasty gulpy sounds you hate so much. (After all, a vowel system of [i u e ɔ ɐ ʌ ɯ] is also perfectly areally acceptable!)

and that's the emergence of [k͡p].)
Well, what else could possibly happen to [kᵝ]?
It would probably just end up [k] or [p]; areal features will probably crush the poor thing into a geminate.

I’d be really curious to know how you come to this conclusion — I don’t know too much about the region.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:21 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:36 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:21 am

Good to know! I worked on the principle of mushifying it as much as possible. I hate the result.
I think it hates you, too!
Don’t worry, next time I’ll balance it out by adding all those horrible nasty gulpy sounds you hate so much. (After all, a vowel system of [i u e ɔ ɐ ʌ ɯ] is also perfectly areally acceptable!)

Don't worry, I have a helpful historical incident that can cure at least a few of them. It will also make some weird structural changes.

Well, what else could possibly happen to [kᵝ]?
It would probably just end up [k] or [p]; areal features will probably crush the poor thing into a geminate.
I’d be really curious to know how you come to this conclusion — I don’t know too much about the region.

More: show

I didn't really know consonants could do some sort of compression (and I guess endolabialisation); given that Middle High Tinasan has labialisation, palatalisation, and labiopalatalisation (Early Tinasan had labiopalatalisation, too, but none of the sequences including it were in the sample, and it was just a sort of "allophone" of palatalisation when applied to labials that weren't /w/), I might just expect it to sit there as another manner of articulation (the Early Tinasan phoneme inventory wasn't that big, just your standard /m n p b t d k g s z ɕ ʑ f h r l w j i e u a o/. Every vowel other than /a/ can be overshort, though some words that would be expected to have /a/ do have overshort /o/ in its place, suggesting it once could, but it and overshort /o/ merged; there was also a diphthong, /eo/, that was the same length as a short vowel, and emerged mostly where an overshort vowel ended up stuffed into a prominent syllable.

All of /t d k g f h/ are always labialised before /o/, and the sequence */hu/ does not occur. They can also be labialised before /i e/, but this labialisation is weaker, and gets lost in Middle High Tinasan. I would imagine compression would do the same (> [k]), or if it pushed the articulation elsewhere, it would still have a simple realisation (> [p]), though that sound was pretty rare, with most */p/ ending up either /f/ or /pp/. You just don't get a lot of "complex" articulation with consonants. A VERY few words have initial clusters — PJ. *kùjá pèy(u) yùrí "sorrow end lily" > ET /klàbél/ "daffodil", /glàbél~glàél/ a kind of lily — but they tend to have complex or phrasal etymologies — the reflex of *kùjá in isolation is goel, and are always clusters of stop + liquid. Early Tinasan is internally a long way from Ineshîmé, which tends to be a bit more Koreanesquely permissive with allowing its consonants to touch. It also only allows /l n/ in the coda at this stage (the /l/ usually descends from a transposed */j/ that then fortifies into a palatal lateral). You do end up with [t̪͡s̪ʲ], but both stops are at the same points of articulation, and the /k g/ in /kl gl/ are usually [c ɟ].

I could also see [k͡p] specifically being perceived as an uncouth or bumpkinish pronunciation, so it might get stigmatised out of existence (and I personally find it kind-of hard to articulate, so it probably just "feels" wrong on some level).

Also, this isn't really here or there, but voiceless stops begin to develop aspirations in Eastern varieties, but this feels more West Tinasan to me so far, so aspiration will probably be slow to spread unless it develops from something else.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:01 am**

Somehow I'd like to see Japonic with lots of nasal vowels...

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:04 am**

Japanese has loads of its vowels nasalised already. I guess you mean with phonemic nasalisation?

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:03 am**

Stress the first syllable with low tone. Tone dissapears.
əᵝ > ɞ
All diphthongs end in a close-mid vowel, ending vowel of diphthong becomes round if first is round.

在抂朝、期々意識堉乃復堉丹相林抂意芽津悗堉丹凬、吾荄起木。
Arŭasa, tokŏdokŏ isĭwokori no todori ni sŏfuru isime tsu moyori nite, wore nisekĕ
[aˈɺɞ.aːs͎a | t̪ʷoːˈkʷɞd̪ᵝok͡pɞ iˈɕə͡ɵɥɵt͡ɕᶣɵ͡ɵɾ̪ʲi ˈnʷo t̪ʷod̪ʷo͡ɵˈɾ̪ᶣy ˈnʷo ˈs̪ə͡ɵʍʉːɺʷʉ̀ iɕiːˈmʲɛ ˈt͡ɕᶣy mᶣɵɥɵˈɾ̪ᶣy͡ɵ ɲiˈt͡ɕɛ | woːˈɺʷɞ ɲiːˈɕɛtɕɜ]

Arŭasa,: certain.morning,

tokŏdokŏ: instance~REDUP

isĭwokori: mind.aware.INF

no: GEN

todori: return.INF

ni: COM

sŏfuru: accompany.ADN

isime: mind

tsu: CONN

moyori: perplex.NOM

nite,: COM,

wore: 1SG.NOM

nisekĕ: awaken.PST

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:03 am**

Superstratum influences from Middle High TInasan:

[s͎] merges back with [s̪];
[ɺɞ] > [ɺʷ] > [ɫ] in hiatus before vowels;
[d̪ᵝ] > [d̪͡b] > [p.p]; [k͡p] > [k.k];
The stress accent is neutralised;
[ə͡ɵ] > [ʷo͜oᵝ]; [ᶣɵ͡ɵ] > [y͜yᵝː]; [ɥò] > [jyᵝ], [ᶣɵ] > [ᶣyᵝ]; ]y͡ɵ] > [y͜yᵝ];
[ʷɞ] > [ʷo]; endolabial compression on rounded vowels is reintroduced;
[ʍ] reverts to [ɸʷ];
Palatalisation is lost before [ɛ]; [t͡ɕɛ] > [t̪.t̪ɛ];
Voiceless stops and affricates are aspirated.

The imperative forms would presumably change, since an ending -lwu in the predicative would presumably push out the hortative -lu and cause the plain imperative form (historically -uro or -yo) to be used generally, but this isn't represented in the sample. This was originally based on a mistake, but ni, nitte become nwo, nwotte. The past tense form in -tte is now too close to the sequential gerund, and is replaced by -chatte (a contraction of it with what I imagine the reflex of the past tense of the copula would be).

There is also a fad for rather extreme manners that wreaks havoc on the pronominal system; poor sensible wôlwo is replaced with the heavily Middle High Tinasanised watagattare.

Also, have some Tezeki (Hiragana), the spellings are based on conventional usage from Middle High Tinasan, rather than reflecting historical sound changes. This makes for some very amusingly long particle spellings. Also refreshed the Romanisation a bit.

在る朝、期々意識りぬを復堉ぬを相ふうる意芽きゆ悗堉りゆうにをつてい、我手方れ起つてあつてい。
Alwâsa, twōkwóppokko ishwôyuchûri nwo twodwôryu nwo swôfūlwu ishîme chyu myuyuryû nyuotte, watagattare nîsechatte.
[àˈɫá͜á.s̪à | t̪ʰʷó͜óᵝˈkʰʷóᵝp.pʰòᵝk.kʰɞ̀ ì.ɕᶣó͜óᵝ.jỳᵝ.t͡ɕʰý͜ýᵝ.ɾ̪ʲì ˈnʷòᵝ t̪ʰʷóᵝ.d̪ʷó͜óᵝˈɾ̪ᶣỳᵝ ˈnʷòᵝ ˈs̪ʷó͜óᵝ.ɸʷʉ̀͜ʉ̀.ɫʉ̀ ì.ɕí͜í.mɛ̀ ˈt͡ɕʰᶣỳ mᶣýjỳᵝˈɾ̪ᶣý͜ỳᵝ ɲᶣót̪.t̪ʰɛ̀ | wá.tʰà.gát̪.t̪ʰà.ɾ̪ɛ̀ ɲí͜í.s̪ɛ̀t.t͡ɕʰát̪.tʰɛ̀]

Alwâsa,: certain.morning,

tōkóppokkŏ: instance~REDUP

ishwôyuchûri: mind.aware.INF

nwo: GEN

twodwôryu: return.INF

nwo: COM

swôfûlw: accompany.ADN

ishîme: mind

chyu: CONN

moyori: perplex.NOM

nwotte,: COM,

watagattare: 1SG.NOM

nîsette: awaken.PST

Now let's see you rebel against this hegemonic superstratum.

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:30 am**

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:03 am Now let's see you rebel against this hegemonic superstratum.

OK then!

V͜V → Vː (purely notational change)
V͜Vᵝ → Vːβ̞
Vβ̞ Vᵝ → V
ɫ → w
Vowel centralisation and backing: ʉ ɞ → u ɔ, then y ɤ a → ʉ ə ɐ
[+palatal]ᶣ → [+velar]ʷ (with deaffrication); other Cᶣ → Cʷ
Stop–fricative chain shift: geminates → stops, voiceless stops → fricatives, voiced stops → nasals, and fricatives voice
Cʷ → C / _ [-round]

在る朝、期々意識りぬを復堉ぬを相ふうる意芽きゆ悗堉りゆうにをつてい、我手方れ起つてあつてい。
Alwâsa, twōkwóppokko ishwôyuchûri nwo twodwôryu nwo swôfūlwu ishîme chyu myuyuryû nyuotte, watagattare nîsechatte.
[ɐ̀ˈwɐ́ːz̪ɐ̀ | s̪ʷóːˈxə́pʰə̀kʰɔ̀ ìɣʷóːjìɕʉ́ːɾ̪ʲì ˈnə̀ s̪ə́n̪ʷóːˈɾ̪ì ˈnə̀ ˈz̪ʷóːβʷùːwù ìʑíːmɛ̀ ˈxʷʉ̀ mʷʉ́jìˈɾ̪ʷʉ̂ː ŋʷót̪ʰɛ̀ | wɐ́sɐ̀ŋɐ́t̪ʰɐ̀ɾ̪ɛ̀ ɲíːz̪ɛ̀t͡ɕʰɐ́t̪ʰɛ̀]

Alwâsa,: certain.morning,

tōkóppokkŏ: instance~REDUP

ishwôyuchûri: mind.aware.INF

nwo: GEN

twodwôryu: return.INF

nwo: COM

swôfûlw: accompany.ADN

ishîme: mind

chyu: CONN

moyori: perplex.NOM

nwotte,: COM,

watagattare: 1SG.NOM

nîsette: awaken.PST

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:41 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:30 am OK then!

How's it feel?

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:06 am**

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:41 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:30 am OK then!
How's it feel?

…sorry, what?

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:16 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:06 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:41 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:30 am OK then!
How's it feel?
…sorry, what?

To take up the challenge, of course.

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:10 am**

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:03 am Now let's see you rebel against this hegemonic superstratum.

I live my life like a shot in the wind
If tomorrow don't come I know
I stole my share of fun for me
'Cause I'm too fast, too rad
I'm going wasted when I go
The cost of freedom's never free, no

pʰ tʰ ɾ̪ kʰ ɣ x β ŋʷ ŋ m {t͡ɕ, t͡ɕʰ} > f θ ð x q χ v m k b t
ɲ w > n kʷ
Cʷ Cʲ C̪ > C C C ! kʷ qʷ xʷ χʷ
ɐ(ː) ʉ(ː) > ɑ(ː) y(ː)
Stressed shwa becomes [e], all other shwas die.
{i, e} y {u,o} > ɛ œ ɔ / C{+uvular]
ɛ > ∅ /_#

在る朝、期々意識りぬを復堉ぬを相ふうる意芽きゆ悗堉りゆうにをつてい、我手方れ起つてあつてい。
Alwâsa, twōkwóppokko ishwôyuchûri nwo twodwôryu nwo swôfūlwu ishîme chyu myuyuryû nyuotte, watagattare nîsechatte.
[ɑ̀ˈkʷɑ́ːzɑ̀ | sóːˈχɛ́fxɔ̀ ìqʷɔ́ːjìɕýːðì ˈnè snóːˈðì ˈnè ˈzóːvùːkʷù ìʑíːb ˈχʷœ̀ býjìˈðŷː móθ | kʷɑ́sɑ̀kɑ́θɑ̀ð níːzɛ̀tɑ́θ]

Alwâsa,: certain.morning,

tōkóppokkŏ: instance~REDUP

ishwôyuchûri: mind.aware.INF

nwo: GEN

twodwôryu: return.INF

nwo: COM

swôfûlw: accompany.ADN

ishîme: mind

chyu: CONN

moyori: perplex.NOM

nwotte,: COM,

watagattare: 1SG.NOM

nîsette: awaken.PST

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:57 am**

And now, you are faced with the possibility of two futures. Tinasan civilisation continues on its march towards centralisation around Eastern High Tinasan varieties. We now progress to Late East Tinasan (assuming these radical shifts must have taken quite some time). Along one path, a group takes this language with them somewhere outside Tinasis, beyond the reach of any sort of hegemonic superstratum, to start a new civilisation. The language consequently suffers exceedingly little being altered by High Tinasan:

More: show

Next, the other route — ending up with a locally-flavoured form of East Tinasan, being quite a lot more conservative than out little endangered cousin language:

More: show

That poor nameless local dialect had a good run, and perhaps it may flourish elsewhere, but, from the view of the people who remained in Tinasis, it was never heard from again. Truly is language standardisation both a blessing, and a curse.

(This means you get to play with it more without East Tinasan coming in to bother you.)

Posted: **Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:00 am**

Well if we're casting a vote, I'm voting on the branch that doesn't revert most of mine and bradrn's changes, and doesn't have that /t͡ɕᶣ ɕᶣ.../ invasive set of phonemes that we've had for the past 6 rounds.

Posted: **Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:02 am**

Neonnaut wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:00 am Well if we're casting a vote, I'm voting on the branch that doesn't revert most of mine and bradrn's changes, and doesn't have that /t͡ɕᶣ ɕᶣ.../ invasive set of phonemes that we've had for the past 6 rounds.

Agreed.

Posted: **Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:37 am**

I was intending for the one that was ongoing to continue, and the rest to just be a bit of fiction to explain the lack of further superstratum intrusions.

Posted: **Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:53 am**

Genitive becomes a suffix.
θ > l
i > ɪ / ! when stressed, long, or following a vowel
{f, xʷ} > ɸ
x > F / F_
ð > d
o(ː) > ʊ(ː)
ɑː y(ː) → oː i(ː)
ɑ > o / kʷ_
sn > hn; {s, ɸ} > h /_#
x kʷ > g k
Stress becomes pitch accent: monosyllables get falling tone, short stress gets high, long stressed gets rising except at the end of a word where it becomes high.

あくわあざ、そおへふほいくをおいしゆうぢねそのおぢねぞおぶうくいぎいふふゐゆびゆぢゆうもうと、くわさかあさ゚そにいぜたと。
Akwâza sōgéfho ikwôishyūdi ne hnôdine zôbūku izhîh fy bîdŷ môl, kwasakâlah nîzetal.
[ɑkǒː.zɑ | sʊːgé̞ɸɸʊ ɪkʊ̌ːɪ.ɕiː.dɪ nê̞ hnʊːdíne̞ zʊ̌ː.buːku ɪʑǐːh ɸí biːdíː mʊ̂ːl | ko.sɑkǒː.lɑh nǐː.ze̞.tɑl]

Akwâza,: certain.morning,

sōkhéfkho: instance~REDUP

ikwôishyūdhine: mind.aware.INF.GEN

snôdhi: return.INF

ne: COM

zôbūku: accompany.ADN

izhîf: mind

rhwyu: CONN

byuidhyû: perplex.NOM

môth,: COM,

kwasakâthas: 1SG.NOM

nîzetath.: awaken.PST

Posted: **Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:02 am**

A few very minor changes would probably take place after that:

A perfective marker [nò], a contraction of an earlier perfective marker that would have probably been whittled down to [n] when all the schwas died that one time, and [o], a contracted form of the copula, replaces [tɑl] as the past tense marker, greatly regularising what I imagine is a rather wonkified paradigm;
That goofy long first-person pronoun gets chopped down to [sɑkǒː];
The comitative [nê̞] gets replaced with an alternate form in [dè̞], which is absorbed as a suffix; low pitch seems to generalise to inflectional suffixes;
Regularised the Romanisation a little, and adjusted kana spellings to reflect new contractions, though the formerly-phonetic spelling remains otherwise fairly conservative.

あくわあざ、そおへふほいくをおいしゆうぢでいそのおぢねぞおぶうくいぎいふふゐゆびゆぢゆうもうと、さかあにいぜの。
Akôza sûgéffu ikûishīdide hnūdíne zûbūku izhîh fi bīdīh mûhl, sakô nîzeno.

[ɑkǒː.zɑ | sʊːgé̞ɸɸʊ ɪkʊ̌ːɪ.ɕiː.dɪ.dè̞ hnʊːdínè̞ zʊ̌ː.buːku ɪʑǐːh ɸí biːdíː mʊ̂ːl | sɑkǒː nǐː.ze̞.nò]

Akôza,: certain.morning,

sûgéffu: instance~REDUP

ikûishīdide: mind.aware.INF.GEN

hnūdí: return.INF

de: COM

zûbūku: accompany.ADN

izhîh: mind

fi: CONN

bīdīh: perplex.NOM

mûl,: COM,

sakô: 1SG.NOM

nîzeno.: awaken.PST

The structure's still holding pretty nicely.

Zompist Bboard Again

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