Zompist Bboard Again

evmdbm wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:23 am I get the general idea that if the agent is higher than the patient in a person-hierarchy so 2nd person is higher than 1st in Algonquian languages you have a direct marker.

On this point, it’s well worth reading Oxford’s Algonquian Grammar Myths (of which this is one).

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 11:18 pm

evmdbm wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:23 am I get the general idea that if the agent is higher than the patient in a person-hierarchy so 2nd person is higher than 1st in Algonquian languages you have a direct marker.

On this point, it’s well worth reading Oxford’s Algonquian Grammar Myths (of which this is one).

More reading Thank you everyone.

A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

Well, I suspect I’d hear that first name as something like ‘Arle’, given your pronunciation… though if it’s on a menu, I think I’d figure it out. (Never heard of the drink nor the golfer.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 amSeriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

Aarghoop Paamrrgh?

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:35 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 amSeriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

Aarghoop Paamrrgh?

The way you spelled that makes me think [ˌɑːʁˤɡuʔpˈpʰãːmʁ̩ˤːk].

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:04 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

Well, I suspect I’d hear that first name as something like ‘Arle’, given your pronunciation… though if it’s on a menu, I think I’d figure it out. (Never heard of the drink nor the golfer.)

I don't think it was on the menu at the drive-through.

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:35 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 amSeriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

Aarghoop Paamrrgh?

Travis has a rhotic dialect where the rhotics are uvular approximants. (Or so he claims, though it’s not implausible.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

/pɑmər/? I've only ever heard /pɔlmər/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

I expect you're joking about being surprised... but I'd guess the problem here is the lack of [n]. She might have accepted "Arno Pama" but "Arro" threw her.

Reminds me of a time when I was buying a bunch of stuff at Menard's and the clerk asked if I wanted to use what sounded like the DeLongo. It took a bit before I realized that it was "the Load 'n Go", a rental truck.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:16 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

I expect you're joking about being surprised... but I'd guess the problem here is the lack of [n]. She might have accepted "Arno Pama" but "Arro" threw her.

Reminds me of a time when I was buying a bunch of stuff at Menard's and the clerk asked if I wanted to use what sounded like the DeLongo. It took a bit before I realized that it was "the Load 'n Go", a rental truck.

I am half-joking. Sure, I may have a thick Milwaukee accent, but every other barista I have encountered here has understood this order without my having to very carefully enunciate each phoneme and add "like the golfer" (except for the baristas at Starbucks, probably due to "Arnold Palmer" being a trademark of the Arizona tea company, but I stopped going to Starbucks after learning from my daughter that Starbucks is suing its union).

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:48 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

/pɑmər/? I've only ever heard /pɔlmər/.

I pronounce words like calm and palm with [ɑ] rather than with [a] (as my dad does) or with [ɒo̯] (like call and pall). I think I am splitting the difference between the pure non-spelling-pronounced [a] and the spelling-pronounced [ɒo̯] here, and in turn my pronunciation of Palmer is influenced accordingly.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:33 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:35 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 amSeriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

Aarghoop Paamrrgh?

Travis has a rhotic dialect where the rhotics are uvular approximants. (Or so he claims, though it’s not implausible.)

They vary significantly with position and environment but they are always approximants and are generally (but not always) uvular and generally (but not always) pharyngealized with prominent labialized and postalveolar-coarticulated allophones. Or if that's hard to wrap one's brain around, just think of it as a "bunched r", even though I read that "bunched r"s are really palatal...

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:48 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

/pɑmər/? I've only ever heard /pɔlmər/.

Now this surprises me. I can only recall hearing the former (well, its non-rhotic equivalent).

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:51 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:48 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?

/pɑmər/? I've only ever heard /pɔlmər/.

Now this surprises me. I can only recall hearing the former (well, its non-rhotic equivalent).

[ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation, but I'm a little surprised it ever existed in "Palmer" - unlike the l-less pronunciation of "salmonella" by analogy to "salmon", the syllable structure is different.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:51 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:48 pm
/pɑmər/? I've only ever heard /pɔlmər/.

Now this surprises me. I can only recall hearing the former (well, its non-rhotic equivalent).

[ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation, but I'm a little surprised it ever existed in "Palmer" - unlike the l-less pronunciation of "salmonella" by analogy to "salmon", the syllable structure is different.

In the dialect here salmonella is [ˌsɛːɤ̯məˈnɜːɰə(ː)] whereas salmon is [ˈsɛ̃ːmɘ̃(ː)(n)].

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am [ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation

Not that I’ve seen.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:46 am In the dialect here salmonella is [ˌsɛːɤ̯məˈnɜːɰə(ː)] whereas salmon is [ˈsɛ̃ːmɘ̃(ː)(n)].

…with this being a notable exception.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:04 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am [ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation

Not that I’ve seen.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:46 am In the dialect here salmonella is [ˌsɛːɤ̯məˈnɜːɰə(ː)] whereas salmon is [ˈsɛ̃ːmɘ̃(ː)(n)].

…with this being a notable exception.

Re-adding /l/ to PALM words which are spelled with <l> is common in NAE, but salmon I have never heard anyone pronounce with an /l/.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:51 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:48 pm
/pɑmər/? I've only ever heard /pɔlmər/.

Now this surprises me. I can only recall hearing the former (well, its non-rhotic equivalent).

[ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation, but I'm a little surprised it ever existed in "Palmer" - unlike the l-less pronunciation of "salmonella" by analogy to "salmon", the syllable structure is different.

Palmer is related to palm, so it's hardly surprising. Anyway, it is nearly always /ˈpɑːmə(r)/ in the UK; there are some traditional dialects (SW England, IIRC) which retain /l/ in these words (and I wonder whether that is the ultimate source of the lambdic pronunciation in the US, though I accept that its recent spread is helped by the spelling) but that is definitely recessive.

How did the Chancery Standard (the basis for modern Standard English) come into being? Was it based on some specific dialect, spoken in a specific region?