Zompist Bboard Again

"Metal", in this context, is just the original form of the word "mettle". It doesn't feel like we need a new word, even if i'm kind of being idiosyncratic

Starbeam wrote: ↑Mon Jun 09, 2025 12:57 pm "Metal", in this context, is just the original form of the word "mettle". It doesn't feel like we need a new word, even if i'm kind of being idiosyncratic

Thank you!

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 24, 2025 2:31 am Speaking of absent members: does anyone know what happened to Linguoboy?

Bump?

Replying here instead of the United States Politics Thread because it no longer has anything to do with US politics.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:41 am In my own case, I have pride in my own work outside of my day job (e.g. zeptoforth), and within a certain circle I have accrued a certain level of prestige for my work on zeptoforth, and zeptoforth exists outside the capitalist system, being a FLOSS project I work on in my spare time without pay which I give to the world.

I am somewhat like you; I have pride in my writing and my conlanging. The difference is that I am diagnosed with an autism spectrum condition and legally unfit for work so I get government benefits and I can devote all my energy to my creative projects.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:41 amIn my own case, I have pride in my own work outside of my day job (e.g. zeptoforth), and within a certain circle I have accrued a certain level of prestige for my work on zeptoforth, and zeptoforth exists outside the capitalist system, being a FLOSS project I work on in my spare time without pay which I give to the world.

I know very little about computer programming, but what I do know is enough to have a profound and massive respect for your accomplishments and I derive a great good feeling seeing the passion and dedication you have for your work.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 3:36 pmI am somewhat like you; I have pride in my writing and my conlanging. The difference is that I am diagnosed with an autism spectrum condition and legally unfit for work so I get government benefits and I can devote all my energy to my creative projects.

Despite being type-I bipolar, obsessive-compulsive, and afflicted with Crohn’s disease sufficiently bad that I lost about a third of my body weight several years ago, I am not considered disabled enough. I have long maintained that I am unfit to be wandering freely around in society, but because institutionalization over here in Eagle Land costs money, I must make my own way. In actuality, I want to work and contribute positively to society, but given how the deck is stacked in my disfavor when it comes to the job hunt (as readers may recall from my forays into the mountains of madness a few years ago, when I made posts here about the job search), being in want of a job is mentally destructive. I am quite grateful that my current employer saw fit to roll the bones on me—even more so that my manager goes the extra mile to understand me.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 7:27 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:41 amIn my own case, I have pride in my own work outside of my day job (e.g. zeptoforth), and within a certain circle I have accrued a certain level of prestige for my work on zeptoforth, and zeptoforth exists outside the capitalist system, being a FLOSS project I work on in my spare time without pay which I give to the world.

I know very little about computer programming, but what I do know is enough to have a profound and massive respect for your accomplishments and I derive a great good feeling seeing the passion and dedication you have for your work.

My work definitely makes me happy, and I always appreciate it when I encounter someone new who is trying out my software, or even who is reporting a bug in it (as after all that means that they care enough to bother reporting it). While some people have little patience for newbies and like, I appreciate their putting in an effort to use my software even when I have to hand-hold them through it.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 7:27 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 3:36 pmI am somewhat like you; I have pride in my writing and my conlanging. The difference is that I am diagnosed with an autism spectrum condition and legally unfit for work so I get government benefits and I can devote all my energy to my creative projects.

Despite being type-I bipolar, obsessive-compulsive, and afflicted with Crohn’s disease sufficiently bad that I lost about a third of my body weight several years ago, I am not considered disabled enough. I have long maintained that I am unfit to be wandering freely around in society, but because institutionalization over here in Eagle Land costs money, I must make my own way. In actuality, I want to work and contribute positively to society, but given how the deck is stacked in my disfavor when it comes to the job hunt (as readers may recall from my forays into the mountains of madness a few years ago, when I made posts here about the job search), being in want of a job is mentally destructive. I am quite grateful that my current employer saw fit to roll the bones on me—even more so that my manager goes the extra mile to understand me.

I am also bipolar type I and am also diagnosed as having obsessive-compulsive tendencies (read: when I am very symptomatic they can really come out of the woodwork but most of the time they are just in the background, manifesting primarily in things like perpetually buying more hand sanitizer and cleaning wipes*, but are not severe enough to be formally diagnosed as obsessive-compulsive per se). In my case, I normally try to live a 'normal' life and hide my diagnoses (aside from that my germophobia is obvious) not out of fear or shame but rather because I want what I do to be judged on its own account rather than as being in spite of my diagnoses. Everyone remembers Terry A. Davis's creation of TempleOS as being colored by his schizophrenia, and I would rather my own work be seen for what it is rather than as the product of someone who is bipolar.

This is especially since I have been pretty stable for the last several years, with at most mild depression or hypomania coming out of the woodwork, and then only a small percentage of the time, and that I have been able to do what I have done has been because of my overall stability. While stronger hypomania may lend itself to furious hacking runs, it inevitably turns into either depression in which one cannot do much of anything, or overt mania where one's mind is just going too fast to be sufficiently organized to be productive.

* I am not sure what element of this is irrational and what is rational, as from one perspective you could say I worry too much about germs, but things like the time I could not hold it in in either direction over a 24 hour period, and then managed despite my best efforts to also infect my dad, last January confirmed to me that it might not be so irrational after all.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:52 pm

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 7:27 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 3:36 pmI am somewhat like you; I have pride in my writing and my conlanging. The difference is that I am diagnosed with an autism spectrum condition and legally unfit for work so I get government benefits and I can devote all my energy to my creative projects.

Despite being type-I bipolar, obsessive-compulsive, and afflicted with Crohn’s disease sufficiently bad that I lost about a third of my body weight several years ago, I am not considered disabled enough. I have long maintained that I am unfit to be wandering freely around in society, but because institutionalization over here in Eagle Land costs money, I must make my own way. In actuality, I want to work and contribute positively to society, but given how the deck is stacked in my disfavor when it comes to the job hunt (as readers may recall from my forays into the mountains of madness a few years ago, when I made posts here about the job search), being in want of a job is mentally destructive. I am quite grateful that my current employer saw fit to roll the bones on me—even more so that my manager goes the extra mile to understand me.

I am also bipolar type I and am also diagnosed as having obsessive-compulsive tendencies (read: when I am very symptomatic they can really come out of the woodwork but most of the time they are just in the background, manifesting primarily in things like perpetually buying more hand sanitizer and cleaning wipes*, but are not severe enough to be formally diagnosed as obsessive-compulsive per se).

I never realised so many people here have OCD. I struggle with it too. (Though I’m not at all bipolar, as far as I’m aware.)

Everyone remembers Terry A. Davis's creation of TempleOS as being colored by his schizophrenia, and I would rather my own work be seen for what it is rather than as the product of someone who is bipolar.

I think TempleOS is a slightly different case, given that he very explicitly described it as having religious significance to him (I mean, the name even contains ‘Temple’). Nothing like that is present in any of your work.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 10:43 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:52 pm Everyone remembers Terry A. Davis's creation of TempleOS as being colored by his schizophrenia, and I would rather my own work be seen for what it is rather than as the product of someone who is bipolar.

I think TempleOS is a slightly different case, given that he very explicitly described it as having religious significance to him (I mean, the name even contains ‘Temple’). Nothing like that is present in any of your work.

That is true. Even then, though, I do not want to be seen as one of those 'successful mentally ill people' that people trot out but rather as simply the author of a popular Forth implementation for ARM Cortex-M microcontrollers.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:33 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 10:43 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:52 pm Everyone remembers Terry A. Davis's creation of TempleOS as being colored by his schizophrenia, and I would rather my own work be seen for what it is rather than as the product of someone who is bipolar.

I think TempleOS is a slightly different case, given that he very explicitly described it as having religious significance to him (I mean, the name even contains ‘Temple’). Nothing like that is present in any of your work.

That is true. Even then, though, I do not want to be seen as one of those 'successful mentally ill people' that people trot out but rather as simply the author of a popular Forth implementation for ARM Cortex-M microcontrollers.

A sentiment with which I agree!

Unrelated: Has there ever been a known human culture in which there was a tradition that a monarch, high priest, or high official, would, every morning before dawn, ritually order the Sun to rise?

I've been wondering about this ever since, as a teenager, I first heard that Hemingway once wrote a novel called The Sun Also Rises. I thought, then, that this would make a good title for a story that starts with this scenario, and then the king is overthrown in a revolution, and the people, after much initial anxiety, are comforted to see that the Sun still rises afterwards.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 1:04 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 24, 2025 2:31 am Speaking of absent members: does anyone know what happened to Linguoboy?

Bump?

I remember seeing him semi-recently. It sucks a mod is out of use, tho

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:33 am Unrelated: Has there ever been a known human culture in which there was a tradition that a monarch, high priest, or high official, would, every morning before dawn, ritually order the Sun to rise?

I don't know any. I have encountered this idea in a satire (on Hitler, in German).

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:33 am Unrelated: Has there ever been a known human culture in which there was a tradition that a monarch, high priest, or high official, would, every morning before dawn, ritually order the Sun to rise?

ordering it to rise? none that I know of.

cultures that I think greeted the rising sun (no idea if there was any element of ordering it)...Ancient Egyptian and Cahokia.
(Ancient Egypt also viewwed baboons as a race who would loudly greet the dawn sun - which is why the baboon-headed Hapi was associated with that time of day)

and then the king is overthrown in a revolution, and the people, after much initial anxiety, are comforted to see that the Sun still rises afterwards.

very nice.

Recquiescat in pace Brian Wilson. God only knows.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:33 am Unrelated: Has there ever been a known human culture in which there was a tradition that a monarch, high priest, or high official, would, every morning before dawn, ritually order the Sun to rise?

The Aztecs said the sun continues to rise because of their human sacrifices. According to Luhrmann, it is not typical for religious people to naively believe the things they say. It's more like they think that it's good for people to believe those things. They aspire to believe them at some point in the future after their spirit has been suitably cleansed.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:33 amUnrelated: Has there ever been a known human culture in which there was a tradition that a monarch, high priest, or high official, would, every morning before dawn, ritually order the Sun to rise?

I've been wondering about this ever since, as a teenager, I first heard that Hemingway once wrote a novel called The Sun Also Rises. I thought, then, that this would make a good title for a story that starts with this scenario, and then the king is overthrown in a revolution, and the people, after much initial anxiety, are comforted to see that the Sun still rises afterwards.

You mean like King Canute ordering the tide to go out?

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 9:48 pmThe Aztecs said the sun continues to rise because of their human sacrifices. According to Luhrmann, it is not typical for religious people to naively believe the things they say. It's more like they think that it's good for people to believe those things. They aspire to believe them at some point in the future after their spirit has been suitably cleansed.

That seems quite implausible to me. Humans are not born with an instinct for scientific rationalism after all so why wouldn't they believe mythological explanations like that?

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 9:56 pm That seems quite implausible to me. Humans are not born with an instinct for scientific rationalism after all so why wouldn't they believe mythological explanations like that?

Humans are born with an instinct that whispers in our ear that people are making a fool out of us. This voice is especially active when someone asks for money, as all organized religions do. Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims often call this voice of skepticism "Satan". It's what they aspire to cleanse from the spirit.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 9:48 pm The Aztecs said the sun continues to rise because of their human sacrifices. According to Luhrmann, it is not typical for religious people to naively believe the things they say. It's more like they think that it's good for people to believe those things. They aspire to believe them at some point in the future after their spirit has been suitably cleansed.

An emphasis on "belief" is characteristic of Christianity; not necessarily other religions. A more common emphasis is on correct practice.

At the same time, assuming that people "didn't really believe all that stuff" is an unwarranted modern extrapolation. Why shouldn't they believe it? It's what the experts said, and who was denying it? And the Aztec rulers, male and female, believed it strongly enough to run thorn-studded ropes through their lips or genitals. When people think a doctrine is both stupid and personally inconvenient, they drop it. Similarly, we have letters from Chinese emperors who showed evident distress if there were floods and famines in the land, because Confucian doctrine said it was their fault.

Skeptics tend to assume that religious belief is difficult and flies in the face of the facts. No, not really, all the more so in a premodern society. There wasn't some Aztec skeptical institution which could prove that the sun didn't need blood.

Unfocused reconstruction of a post lost to the buggy database:

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:27 pm At the same time, assuming that people "didn't really believe all that stuff" is an unwarranted modern extrapolation. Why shouldn't they believe it? It's what the experts said, and who was denying it? ... Similarly, we have letters from Chinese emperors who showed evident distress if there were floods and famines in the land, because Confucian doctrine said it was their fault.

Firstly, the alternative to the majority religion is rarely principled skepticism. More often than not, skepticism is a gateway people pass through to reach more fringe beliefs like vaccine denialism, Taoism, Marxism or the worship of exotic deities who are deemed more powerful than the local gods.

It need not be that extreme. There are factions even within the majority religion. The slow triumph of smaller factions is how belief systems keep evolving even in non-revolutionary times. E.g. Quetzalcoatl was said to have opposed human sacrifice. It's conceivable that his cult could have triumphed over the others. (But maybe Mesoamerica was a small region with a dense population where human sacrifice developed as a check on population growth?)

Secondly, we have a similar relationship with science: a) Lots of people don't believe in it. b) Many others think they should believe it, but do not in practice. There are skeptics who will be scared if you take them to a spooky haunted house.

Other than tangible results, I think people are more inclined to believe in science than any one religion because scientists don't beg for donations from house to house. Yet.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:27 pm And the Aztec rulers, male and female, believed it strongly enough to run thorn-studded ropes through their lips or genitals. When people think a doctrine is both stupid and personally inconvenient, they drop it.

They thought these practices were good. It made them tougher and more disciplined.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:27 pm Skeptics tend to assume that religious belief is difficult and flies in the face of the facts. No, not really, all the more so in a premodern society. There wasn't some Aztec skeptical institution which could prove that the sun didn't need blood.

Luhrmann is not a skeptic. She's a professor of anthropology at Stanford specializing in religion. She has done extensive religious practice herself.

She explicitly says that we tend to assign fundamentalist belief systems to premodern peoples because anthropologists regarded them as "primitive", but they have the same drives as everyone else. IIRC I got this from How God Becomes Real.

BTW, there are records of atheists in medieval Europe despite the church's stranglehold on education. Atheists were regarded as even bigger cranks back then.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 12:17 am Unfocused reconstruction of a post lost to the buggy database:

maybe try what I do? it works for me; i assume it'll work for you.
Select All, Cut, Paste, Send...and if a problem arises, back up, Reply, Paste, Send again.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:27 pm At the same time, assuming that people "didn't really believe all that stuff" is an unwarranted modern extrapolation. Why shouldn't they believe it? It's what the experts said, and who was denying it? ... Similarly, we have letters from Chinese emperors who showed evident distress if there were floods and famines in the land, because Confucian doctrine said it was their fault.

It need not be that extreme. There are factions even within the majority religion.

*nods*

The slow triumph of smaller factions is how belief systems keep evolving even in non-revolutionary times. E.g. Quetzalcoatl was said to have opposed human sacrifice. It's conceivable that his cult could have triumphed over the others. (But maybe Mesoamerica was a small region with a dense population where human sacrifice developed as a check on population growth?)

the Mayans argue otherwise...they did do the bleeding stuff a lot, though.

Secondly, we have a similar relationship with science: a) Lots of people don't believe in it. b) Many others think they should believe it, but do not in practice. There are skeptics who will be scared if you take them to a spooky haunted house.

Other than tangible results, I think people are more inclined to believe in science than any one religion because scientists don't beg for donations from house to house. Yet.

a lot of them were getting funding from the colleges and other sites they worked at...outside the USA, they probably still are.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:27 pm And the Aztec rulers, male and female, believed it strongly enough to run thorn-studded ropes through their lips or genitals. When people think a doctrine is both stupid and personally inconvenient, they drop it.

They thought these practices were good. It made them tougher and more disciplined.

so, by that logic, you don't really believe all that stuff that Marx and his heirs said, then...you're just going along with it, because you feel it'll make you tougher and more disciplined.

shoe? other foot.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:27 pm Skeptics tend to assume that religious belief is difficult and flies in the face of the facts. No, not really, all the more so in a premodern society. There wasn't some Aztec skeptical institution which could prove that the sun didn't need blood.

Luhrmann is not a skeptic. She's a professor of anthropology at Stanford specializing in religion. She has done extensive religious practice herself.

you mean research, right?

BTW, there are records of atheists in medieval Europe despite the church's stranglehold on education. Atheists were regarded as even bigger cranks back then.

I think either Socrates or Plato were accused of being atheists as well -- but not in the sense you may be thinking; they didn't believe in the gods of that city. thats not the same as not believing in any and all gods.