Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[Travis B.]

How did the Scottish Lowlands come to speak Lowlands Scots, given that this apparently happened a while before Scotland started to be governed from London?

Old English was spoken in the Scottish Lowlands, and Middle Scots just evolved from Old English there.

What I was wondering was how Old English had ended up in the Scottish Lowlands in the first place.

The Kingdom of Northumbria.

[Glass Half Baked]

Are there any sound changes that differentiate Scots from English that predate ~1100? I always though Scots was an early offshoot of Middle English.

[Richard W]

What I was wondering was how Old English had ended up in the Scottish Lowlands in the first place.

At one level, they only became Scottish by conquest from the English.

The dating and mechanism for the Germanicisation of eastern Britain is not certain, though it seems to have been helped south of the Wall by the settlement of Germanic foederati. The idea that the east was Germanic before the Roman conquest does not seem to go away. Elite dominance was certainly at play, and might even be relevant for making English 'West Germanic' and the English be ale-swilling beer drinkers.

[Raphael]

What I was wondering was how Old English had ended up in the Scottish Lowlands in the first place.

The Kingdom of Northumbria.

Thank you!

The dating and mechanism for the Germanicisation of eastern Britain is not certain, though it seems to have been helped south of the Wall by the settlement of Germanic foederati. The idea that the east was Germanic before the Roman conquest does not seem to go away. Elite dominance was certainly at play, and might even be relevant for making English 'West Germanic' and the English be ale-swilling beer drinkers.

Huh? I've never heard of an idea that the east was Germanic before the Roman conquest before. I don't think I even heard of Germanic foederati in England. Until I read your post, I assumed that the Romans left first, and then the Germanic tribes arrived.

[Otto Kretschmer]

When did the Grimm's Law take place?

[WeepingElf]

When did the Grimm's Law take place?

Short answer: Nobody knows.

Long answer: There are reasons to assume that it happened late, as the oldest Celtic loanwords in Germanic are affected by it. But there are other reasons to assume that it happened early, as Verner's Law, which is usually considered happening after it, relies on the original PIE mobile accent which probably did not survive very long in Germanic. A possible solution is to have it happen in two stages. In the first stage, the PIE voiceless stops were aspirated, which may have happened very early. In the second stage, aspirates stops (both voiceless and voiced) were spirantized, which may have happened very late. These two changes may have been as much as 2000 years apart from each other, giving more than enough time for Verner's Law, accent retraction and the devoicing of voiced unaspirated stops to happen between them (Verner's Law could easily have happened before spirantization as it could just as well operate on aspirated stops as on spirants). The oldest Celtic loanwords would also have entered Germanic within this interval, with the Celtic voiceless stops rendered as aspirated stops because they were aspirated in both languages (most Celticists assume that the Proto-Celtic voiceless stops were aspirated in most environments).

[Richard W]

Huh? I've never heard of an idea that the east was Germanic before the Roman conquest before.

It seems to have originated with Oppenheimer, who claims genetic support for it.. One can connect the idea with the Belgae, whom Caesar says were mostly sprung from the Germans. It meshes nicely with evidence of continuity from Roman Britain to Anglo-Saxon England, but it seems to be an unnecessary hypothesis.

I don't think I even heard of Germanic foederati in England.

My primary source is the Oxford History of England: Volume I B: The English Settlements by J. N. L. Myres. (My copy is currently in hiding.) They're also referred to in Wikipedia's Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain with a different source given.

I've also seen claims that the so-called forts of the Saxon Shore were actually supply depots for the said foederati (or whatever). Hengist and Horsa are in keeping with such a tradition continuing after Roman abandonment.

[Raphael]

Huh? I've never heard of an idea that the east was Germanic before the Roman conquest before.

It seems to have originated with Oppenheimer, who claims genetic support for it.. One can connect the idea with the Belgae, whom Caesar says were mostly sprung from the Germans. It meshes nicely with evidence of continuity from Roman Britain to Anglo-Saxon England, but it seems to be an unnecessary hypothesis.

I don't think I even heard of Germanic foederati in England.

My primary source is the Oxford History of England: Volume I B: The English Settlements by J. N. L. Myres. (My copy is currently in hiding.) They're also referred to in Wikipedia's Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain with a different source given.

I've also seen claims that the so-called forts of the Saxon Shore were actually supply depots for the said foederati (or whatever). Hengist and Horsa are in keeping with such a tradition continuing after Roman abandonment.

Thank you, interesting.

[Jonlang]

Is there a name for what's going on in English the structure subject + be + infinitive when talking about intent or even firm future events, e.g.I am to go next week; David was to see it for the first time. And do any other languages do a similar thing?

[Travis B.]

I am on my way from Chicago back to Wisconsin after having been in central California and then taken the train from there to Chicago, and aside from the plain people I encountered everyone spoke some variation on General American except me and my daughter. It felt weird, like... is how I'm used to speaking that different?