Zompist Bboard Again

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm Why did Latin cavea 'cage, etc' become French cage 'i.d.' and not *cae or something to that effect? Was it w → gʷ? I thought that only occurred in Old Latin.

According to Peter Boyd-Bowman, VY regularly goes to /ʒ/: SALVIA > sauge, LEVIARIU > léger, SERVIENTE > sergent; DILUVIU > déluge. Also BY: RUBEU > rouge, RABIA > rage, TIBIA > tige. Also note MY > ~ʒ, e.g. SIMIA > singe, VINDEMIA > vendange.

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm Why did Latin cavea 'cage, etc' become French cage 'i.d.' and not *cae or something to that effect? Was it w → gʷ? I thought that only occurred in Old Latin.

What is interesting is that it did not undergo /w/ > /β/ as was typical of Latin /w/. Note that /w/ > /gʷ/ was typical of later borrowings into Romance (except for northernmost western Romance*) with /w/ in them (e.g. Frankish *werra > Old Francien guerre).

* This is how English war was borrowed from Old Norman werre, as it did not undergo /w/ > /gʷ/ unlike Old Francien. Yes, it was borrowed from Germanic into Romance and back into Germanic again. A direct cognate in Germanic is StG verwirren "to confuse".

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:04 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm Why did Latin cavea 'cage, etc' become French cage 'i.d.' and not *cae or something to that effect? Was it w → gʷ? I thought that only occurred in Old Latin.

According to Peter Boyd-Bowman, VY regularly goes to /ʒ/: SALVIA > sauge, LEVIARIU > léger, SERVIENTE > sergent; DILUVIU > déluge. Also BY: RUBEU > rouge, RABIA > rage, TIBIA > tige. Also note MY > ~ʒ, e.g. SIMIA > singe, VINDEMIA > vendange.

That makes sense in that intervocalic V and B merged to /β/, so it is likely that there was an intermediate step of a merged /βj/ which then changed to /ʒ/?

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm Why did Latin cavea 'cage, etc' become French cage 'i.d.' and not *cae or something to that effect? Was it w → gʷ? I thought that only occurred in Old Latin.

Something like /kavea/ > /kavja/ > /kavdja/, like French singe from Latin simia.

The pathway was undoubtedly /ˈkawe̯a/ → *kaβja → *kaβdʒa → ... → kaʒ. Labial + i̯ regularly became palatals in French; RUBEUS > rouge, SAPIAM → sache etc. The intermediate steps are sometimes attested in Romansh, e.g. RABIA → /rabdʑɐ/.

More of a mystery is why it has /k/ and not /ʃ/.

Darren wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:27 am The pathway was undoubtedly /ˈkawe̯a/ → *kaβja → *kaβdʒa → ... → kaʒ. Labial + i̯ regularly became palatals in French; RUBEUS > rouge, SAPIAM → sache etc. The intermediate steps are sometimes attested in Romansh, e.g. RABIA → /rabdʑɐ/.

More of a mystery is why it has /k/ and not /ʃ/.

Dialect borrowing I suppose, like the chier/caguer 'to shit' doublet.

Also do we have any dating on *j → /ʒ/ word initially? Cause it'd make sense if they correlated, that /ʒ/ is the regular reflex of *j in French when not preceded by a vowel.

Frislander wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 2:43 pm Also do we have any dating on *j → /ʒ/ word initially? Cause it'd make sense if they correlated, that /ʒ/ is the regular reflex of *j in French when not preceded by a vowel.

IIRC this was [dʒ] up to Middle French, e.g. only relatively recent French loans in English, such as garage, were borrowed with /ʒ/ (notwithstanding the tendency to turn final /ʒ/ into /dʒ/ in many English varieties).

Frislander wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 2:43 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:27 am The pathway was undoubtedly /ˈkawe̯a/ → *kaβja → *kaβdʒa → ... → kaʒ. Labial + i̯ regularly became palatals in French; RUBEUS > rouge, SAPIAM → sache etc. The intermediate steps are sometimes attested in Romansh, e.g. RABIA → /rabdʑɐ/.

More of a mystery is why it has /k/ and not /ʃ/.

Dialect borrowing I suppose, like the chier/caguer 'to shit' doublet.

Presumably

Also do we have any dating on *j → /ʒ/ word initially? Cause it'd make sense if they correlated, that /ʒ/ is the regular reflex of *j in French when not preceded by a vowel.

Initial j-fortition was one of the earliest Romance sound changes, probably in the first few centuries AD; afaik it's common to all of Romance. On the other hand it's only French and surrounding languages that palatalised labial + /i̯/ clusters; in other languages they're kept (SĒPIA → It /ˈseppja/) or undergo metathesis (CAVEA → Istro-Romanian /ˈkɔjbə/), so that change happened several centuries later.

The reflexes of *j in French are
- ʒ word-initially
- generally nothing or /ʒ/ intervocalically
- *lj nj (p)tj dj kj gj → j ɲ s~(z) ʒ~Ø s ʒ
- *m(n)j pj βj → Ṽʒ ʃ ʒ
- *rj sj → ʲr ʲz

Frication of initial *j is pretty universal in Romance, even though it had different outcomes in different parts, e.g. [dʒ] in Old French versus [ʝ~j] in Old Spanish, so I would presume it was pretty early. (It was early enough in Old Spanish that Latinate words were borrowed into it with [dʒ], which became [ʒ] in later Old Spanish, and evolved differently from native Romance words.)

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:04 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm Why did Latin cavea 'cage, etc' become French cage 'i.d.' and not *cae or something to that effect? Was it w → gʷ? I thought that only occurred in Old Latin.

According to Peter Boyd-Bowman, VY regularly goes to /ʒ/: SALVIA > sauge, LEVIARIU > léger, SERVIENTE > sergent; DILUVIU > déluge. Also BY: RUBEU > rouge, RABIA > rage, TIBIA > tige. Also note MY > ~ʒ, e.g. SIMIA > singe, VINDEMIA > vendange.

I've always wondered about the reasons behind the inconsistent picture in Catalan, where you see only LEVIARIU > lleuger, RUBEU > roig, and *BALBIU > boig. I guess the usual go-to in these scenarios is "dialect borrowing", but which dialect and why only these words?

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 11:55 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:04 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm Why did Latin cavea 'cage, etc' become French cage 'i.d.' and not *cae or something to that effect? Was it w → gʷ? I thought that only occurred in Old Latin.

According to Peter Boyd-Bowman, VY regularly goes to /ʒ/: SALVIA > sauge, LEVIARIU > léger, SERVIENTE > sergent; DILUVIU > déluge. Also BY: RUBEU > rouge, RABIA > rage, TIBIA > tige. Also note MY > ~ʒ, e.g. SIMIA > singe, VINDEMIA > vendange.

I've always wondered about the reasons behind the inconsistent picture in Catalan, where you see only LEVIARIU > lleuger, RUBEU > roig, and *BALBIU > boig. I guess the usual go-to in these scenarios is "dialect borrowing", but which dialect and why only these words?

Considering that Catalan is essentially descended from dialects like those that immediately begat Occitan, through settlers from Occitania who moved southward into what is now Catalonia, I would guess that this, if this is dialect borrowing, resulted from dialect borrowing between different Gallo-Romance dialects in what is now France?

Darren wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:27 am The pathway was undoubtedly /ˈkawe̯a/ → *kaβja → *kaβdʒa → ... → kaʒ. Labial + i̯ regularly became palatals in French; RUBEUS > rouge, SAPIAM → sache etc. The intermediate steps are sometimes attested in Romansh, e.g. RABIA → /rabdʑɐ/.

More of a mystery is why it has /k/ and not /ʃ/.

Indeed it could be a dialectal borrowing or a spontaneous dissimilation from /d͡ʒ/

*kaβdʒa

Was ever there *βdʒ / *vdʒ in the process? I thought voiced stops dropped intervocally in Middle French, so more like *kaβja → *kaja → *kadʒa → ... → kaʒ

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:30 pmConsidering that Catalan is essentially descended from dialects like those that immediately begat Occitan, through settlers from Occitania who moved southward into what is now Catalonia

[citation needed]

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 4:08 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:30 pmConsidering that Catalan is essentially descended from dialects like those that immediately begat Occitan, through settlers from Occitania who moved southward into what is now Catalonia

[citation needed]

From here:

Catalan is a variety of Latin that developed originally on a small territory on either side of the eastern Pyrenees. Expansion of this territory, the Marca Hispanica of the Carolingian empire, is associated with a process of developing political independence, beginning with the separation (a.d. 988) of the county of Barcelona from the trunk of the Carolingian domain. Eventual fusion with the crown of Aragon (1162) gave new momentum to this projection.

What I said might have not been precisely accurate, but what is true is that Catalan originated from a small area to the immediate south of Occitania, and then over the following centuries expanded southward into the remainder of present-day Catalonia and into present-day Valencia.

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:44 pm

*kaβdʒa

Was ever there *βdʒ / *vdʒ in the process? I thought voiced stops dropped intervocally in Middle French, so more like *kaβja → *kaja → *kadʒa → ... → kaʒ

The reflex of intervocalic B (and V) is generally /v/; CABALLUS → /tʃeˈval/ → /ʃəˈval/, FABA → /ˈfævə/ → /fɛv/. D and G did drop, although that's more of an Old French change.

Does anyone here happen to know whether there is any kind of etymological relation between

1) some dialects of German "Bulette" "a type of ground meat patty", and

2) English "bullet"?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Aug 06, 2024 11:43 am Does anyone here happen to know whether there is any kind of etymological relation between

1) some dialects of German "Bulette" "a type of ground meat patty", and

2) English "bullet"?

I think they are both from French boulet 'little ball', but I am not sure.

Has the pin-pen merger reached suburban Chicagoland? One of my nephews and my niece, who are from the southwestern suburbs of Chicago, are over (my younger nephew, who is two, is not over), and I overheard my older nephew, who is eight, pronounce Wednesday as [ˈwɪ̃ːndzde̞ː]. Oh, and he seems to be non-rhotic too... (No, this is not AAVE influence either.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 06, 2024 12:58 pm Has the pin-pen merger reached suburban Chicagoland? One of my nephews and my niece, who are from the southwestern suburbs of Chicago, are over (my younger nephew, who is two, is not over), and I overheard my older nephew, who is eight, pronounce Wednesday as [ˈwɪ̃ːndzde̞ː]. Oh, and he seems to be non-rhotic too... (No, this is not AAVE influence either.)

I'm pretty sure we are solidly rhotic and don't merge pin/pen here. However, I think W[ɛ]dnesday and W[ɪ]dnesday are in free variation.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 4:39 pmWhat I said might have not been precisely accurate, but what is true is that Catalan originated from a small area to the immediate south of Occitania, and then over the following centuries expanded southward into the remainder of present-day Catalonia and into present-day Valencia.

...which pretty well invalidates your speculations about Occitan dialect mixing.

Catalonia wasn't populated from further north; it had been thoroughly latinised in the Roman period. The local romance variety developed in what was and is still Catalan-speaking territory (so-called "Old Catalonia", now divided between France and Spain) and was carried south during the Reconquista in exactly the same way as its sister varieties Aragonese, Castilian, Astur-Leonese, and Galaico-Portuguese.

We do have evidence for large-scale migration from Occitania into Catalonia, but eight centuries later, when the standard form was fixed (and had already incorporated these divergent lexemes).