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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:01 pm
by dɮ the phoneme
bradrn wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:19 am Couple of confusing things here… the sample text has /j a/, but the phonemic inventory doesn’t. Also, I’d like to know, is stress predictable? (In both the protolanguage and its child.)
Fixed, in addition to a few other typos. I wrote this at about 1:30 AM.

Stress is not predictable in the proto-lang, though it always falls on one of the first two syllables and its distribution is interdependent with vowel length (any multisyllabic word with a stressed initial syllable must have a long vowel in the first syllable, any word with a long vowel in the first syllable must have initial stress. You can think of it as a left-aligned iambic system, that used to be predicable, but where vowels in metrically weak positions underwent shortening, making the stress contrastive. Long nasal vowels were introduced later.) Stress in the daughter lang... I'm not sure.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:10 pm
by Karch
/p t t(s)ʲ tˤ k/ <p t c th k>
/b d d(z)ʲ dˤ g/ <b d j dh g>
/f s sʲ sˤ/ <f s x sh>
/m n~l nʲ~ʎ nˤ~ɫ/ <m n z nh>

/i o a/ <i o a>
/iː uː eː oː aː eu/ <ii u e oo aa eu>
/ɛ̃ː ɔ̃ː ãː/ <eh oh ah>

V́ V̅ V̀ V̰̅ V̰̀ <á â à â' à'>

/páːtako sʲatˤóː minē nò̰ːnʲisa tonònɛ̃ːfidʲifidʲi dáːga mogã̰̀ːdi dˤí kèumo fanūːno minē gáːsˤe/
Páatako xathóo minê nòo'zisa tonònehfijifiji dáaga mogàa'ndi dhí kèumo fanûno minê gáashe.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:14 pm
by bradrn
unnamed phonology:

/p t t(s)ʲ tˤ k/ ⟨p t c th k⟩
/b d d(z)ʲ dˤ g/ ⟨b d j dh g⟩
/f s sʲ sˤ/ ⟨f s ś sh⟩
/m n~l nʲ~ʎ nˤ~ɫ/ ⟨m n~l ń~ł nh~lh⟩

/i o a/ ⟨i o a⟩
/iː uː eː oː aː eu/ ⟨ī ū ē ō ā eu⟩
/ɛ̃ː ɔ̃ː ãː/ ⟨ẽ õ ã⟩

/V́ V̅ V̀ V̰̅ V̰̀/ ⟨V' V V. Vq' Vq.⟩

/páːtako sʲatˤóː minē nò̰ːnʲisa tonònɛ̃ːfidʲifidʲi dáːga mogã̰̀ːdi dˤí kèumo fanūːno minē gáːsˤe/

Pā'tako śathō' milē loq.łisa tolo.nẽfijifiji dā'ga mogãq.di dhi' keu.mo falūlo milē gā'she.

------

unnamed phonology + 1000 years:

/p b t d k g q/ ⟨p b t d k g q⟩
/f v s z θ ð ʃ ʒ ʂ ʐ x/ ⟨f v s z th dh c j sh zh kh⟩
/m n nʲ/ ⟨m n ń⟩
/w l j/ ⟨w l y⟩

in stressed syllables:
/i ɨ o ɑ æ ia ua iː ɨː uː eː oː æː ɑː/ ⟨i ɨ o a æ ia ua ih ɨh uh eh oh æh ah⟩

in unstressed syllables:
/ə i iː uː æː/ ⟨e i ih uh æh⟩

/V́ V̅ V̀ V̰̅ V̰̀/ ⟨V́ V V̀ V̰ V̰̀⟩

/pǽːθku ʂtúː mlíː nṵ̀ːjsə təlòlivjivji dǽk məgæ̰̀ːt dɨ́kuàmə flílu mlíː gɑ́ːʐ/

Pǽhthku shtúh mlíh nṵ̀yse telòlivyivyi dǽk megæ̀ht dɨ́kuàme flílu mlíh gáhzh.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:56 am
by bradrn
Hup /húp ʔɨ̌d/ [húp̚ ʔɨ̌dⁿ]

Consonants:

The phonemic consonant inventory of Hup is as follows:

/p t c k ʔ/
/b d ɟ ɡ/
/bˀ (pˀ) dˀ ɟˀ ɡˀ/
/ç h/
/w j/
/wˀ jˀ/

However, Hup is one of those horrible languages with lots and lots of allophony, so the phonetic consonant inventory is much larger. This will be described below.

Vowels:

In oral syllables:

/i ɨ u/
/e ə o/
/æ a ɔ/

In nasal syllables:

/ĩ ɨ̃ ũ/
/æ̃ ã ɔ̃/

Syllable structure: (C)V(C), with an overwhelming preference for CV(C) syllables. Vowel-initial syllables are attested only when a -VC suffix follows another vowel; if such a suffix follows a consonant, the previous consonant is geminated to give a CVC syllable (e.g. wób + -óywób-bóy). Words must begin with a consonant and end with a heavy (=bimoraic) syllable.

Prosody: Syllables may be either oral or nasal (represented in the phonemic transcription by a preceding tilde). Most morphemes are monosyllabic; a rare few multisyllabic morphemes have one oral and one nasal syllable, but the rest are completely oral or nasal. There is very little nasal spreading, occurring only with vowel-copying suffixes. Each word has a stressed syllable, which is unpredictable; stress appears to be non-phonemic. The stressed syllable can take on either high tone /V́/ or rising tone /V̌/. The high tone has falling tone [V̂] as an allophone; falling tone appears with a voiced syllable coda, while rising tone can only appear with a voiceless syllable code.

Allophony: As I mentioned, there is a lot of allophony. Curiously enough, much of it seems to be dependent on the position within the morpheme (i.e. initial, medial, final) rather than within the syllable. Some sounds also have allophones when in nasal syllables, as well as when they undergo morphophonological gemination.
  • /p/: [p] initially and medially, [p~p.p] geminated, [p̚] finally
  • /t/: [t] initially, [ɾ] (Tat Deh dialect) or [t~t.t] (Central dialect) medially and geminated, [k̚] finally
  • /c/: [tʃ~ʃ~ts~s~tʲ~tj] initially (from now on I will write this set of allophones as [č] in phonetic transcription), [č~t.tʲ] when medial or geminated, [ʲt̚] finally
  • /k/: [k] initially and medially, [k̚] finally
  • /ʔ/: [ʔ] always, though as usual for glottal stops it can also add some minor creaky voice to the surrounding vowels
  • /b/: [ᵐb] initially, [bᵐ] finally, [pb~b~bᵐ.ᵐb] geminated, [m] when nasal
  • /d/: [ⁿd] initially, [ɾ~d~td] medially, [ɾ~dⁿ.ⁿd] geminated, [dⁿ] finally, [n] when nasal
  • /ɟ/: [ʲdⁿ] finally, [ʲdⁿ.ⁿdʲ] geminated, [ʲn] when nasal (/ɟ/ does not occur elsewhere)
  • /ɡ/: [ɡᵑ] finally, [ɡᵑ.ᵑɡ] geminated, [ŋ] when nasal (/ɡ/ does not occur elsewhere)
  • /ç/: [ʲh] finally, [ʲh.hʲ] geminated, [ʲ̃h̃] when nasal (/ç/ does not occur elsewhere)
  • /h/: [h̃] when nasal, [h] elsewhere
  • /w/: [β] before front vowels /æ e i/, [w] elsewhere, [β̃] or [w̃] when nasal
  • /j/: [j] finally and between vowels, [j̃] when nasal in the same context, [ᵈj] (oral) or [ⁿj] (nasal) initially
The glottalised consonants are, for the most part, not realised as ejective or implosive (though /ɟˀ/ and /ɡˀ/ occasionally have a somewhat ejective character). Rather, the glottalisation is realised as creaky voice on the following vowel if there is one; glottalised stops in particular are indistinguishable from plain stops when word-final.
  • /bˀ/: [ᵐbV̰] (oral) or [mV̰] (nasal) initially and medially, [b̚~p̚] (oral) or [mp̚] (nasal) finally, [p.ᵐb~b̚.ᵐb] (oral) or [mp.m] (nasal) geminated (note lack of creaky voice after geminated glottalised consonants)
  • /pˀ/: [pV̰] in the single word /pˀǎj/ [pǎ̰j] ‘priest’ where it occurs
  • /dˀ/: [ⁿdV̰] (oral) or [nV̰] (nasal) initially, [t.dV̰~ɾV̰] medially, [d̚~t̚] (oral) or [nt̚] (nasal) finally, [t.ⁿdV~d̚.ⁿdV] (oral) or [nt.n] (nasal) when geminated
  • /ɟˀ/: [čV̰] initially and medially; [ʲd̚~ʲt̚] (oral) or [j̃n̚] (nasal) finally, [ʲt.ⁿdʲ~ʲd̚.ⁿdʲ] (oral) or [j̃n̚.ⁿj~j̃nt.ⁿj] (nasal) geminated
  • /ɡˀ/: [kV̰] (oral) or [kṼ̰] (nasal) initially and medially, [ɡ̚~k̚] (oral) or [ŋ̚] (nasal) finally, [k.ᵑɡ~g̚.ᵑɡ] (oral) or [ŋk.ŋ] (nasal) geminated
  • /wˀ/: [wV̰] initially and medially, [wˀ] finally, [wˀ.w] geminate; all of these are simply nasalised to [w̃] etc. in nasal contexts
  • /jˀ/ [ᵈjV̰] (oral) or [ⁿj̃V̰] (nasal) initially, [jˀ] (oral) or [j̃ˀ] (nasal) medially and finally, [jˀ.ᵈj] (oral) or [j̃ˀ.ⁿj̃] (nasal) geminated
Sample text: From the phonology chapter of Epp’s A Grammar of Hup (my source), here are some phonemic and phonetic transcriptions of some Hup words:

/~tɨhɨ́j baʔtɨ̌bˀ~ǎn tǔdút cúɡ ~jɔʔɔ́b ~bˀǎɟˀát/
[tɨ̃h̃ɨ̃̂j baʔtɨ̌p.mã̌n tǔdⁿ.ⁿdút̚~tǔɾút̚ čûɡᵑ ⁿj̃ɔ̃ʔɔ̃̂m mã̰̌ʲ̃nt.ⁿj̃ã́t̚]


(I’ve tried enlarging the text in the hope that it might help make the diacritics slightly clearer. This is clearly one of those languages which stretches the IPA to its limits.)

I am not going to give a proper sample text, simply because I don’t feel confident enough to figure out the phonetic transcription myself.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:44 pm
by Nortaneous
/i ɨ u/ <i w u>
/e ə o/ <e y o>
/æ a ɔ/ <ia a au>

/ĩ ɨ̃ ũ/ <in wn un>
/æ̃ ã ɔ̃/ <en an on>

<V́ V̌> <V̂ Vh>

/p/: <p p pp p>
/t/: <t tr tt k>
/c/: <ti ti iti it>
/k/: <k k kk k>
/ʔ/: <x x xx x>
/b/: <b b bb bm m>
/d/: <d r dd dn n -ñ>
/ɟ/: <- - idi id ni/in>
/ɡ/: <- - gg g g>
/ç/: <s>
/h/: <h>
/w/: <u>
/j/: <di/ni i>
glottalization: <x>

/~tɨhɨ́j baʔtɨ̌bˀ~ǎn tǔdút cúɡ ~jɔʔɔ́b ~bˀǎɟˀát/
[tɨ̃h̃ɨ̃̂j baʔtɨ̌p.mã̌n tǔdⁿ.ⁿdút̚~tǔɾút̚ čûɡᵑ ⁿj̃ɔ̃ʔɔ̃̂m mã̰̌ʲ̃nt.ⁿj̃ã́t̚]
tynhyihn baxtyhmxahñ tuhddût tiûg niaunxâum mxainiânt

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:42 pm
by Karch
Saipan Carolinian

/p bʷ t x/
/p: pʷ: t: k:/
/m mʷ (n) ŋ/
/m: mʷ: (n:) ŋ:/
/f s ʂ h/
/f: s: tʂ:/
/w r l j/
/w: l: j:/

The phonemes /b d g k/ can occur in loanwords.

/i ʉ u e ə o æ a ɔ/
/i: ʉ: u: e: ə: o: æ: a: ɔ:/

/ixa ija tiwoːw ræxij ija xukːuleːj bʷe ibʷe təːtæ wɔːl toroŋkoːl mæːj || luxul imʷemem ŋe ejoːr eluːw toroŋkoːl mæːj || ruwo mæːj kːaːl re lo arol imʷal rʉːʂaj priːmaːl tæːtæːj || ikːaːl mæːj kːa aj æfiʂij bʷe aj bʷe təːtæ wɔːl bwe ixa re arap ŋælij iːmʷ me re lːaŋ sæŋij luːxal iːmʷ/

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:04 pm
by Darren
Saipan Carolinian

/p bʷ t x/ <p b t k>
/p: pʷ: t: k:/ <pp bb tt kk>
/m mʷ (n) ŋ/ <m v n g>
/m: mʷ: (n:) ŋ:/ <mm vv nn gg>
/f s ʂ h/ <f s x h>
/f: s: tʂ:/ <ff ss xx>
/w r l j/ <w r l y>
/w: l: j:/ <ww ll yy>

The phonemes /b d g k/ can occur in loanwords. <b d g k>

/i ʉ u e ə o æ a ɔ/ <i ui u e oe ou a oa o>
/i: ʉ: u: e: ə: o: æ: a: ɔ:/ <ii uui uu ee ooe oou aa ooa oo>

/ixa ija tiwoːw ræxij ija xukːuleːj bʷe ibʷe təːtæ wɔːl toroŋkoːl mæːj || luxul imʷemem ŋe ejoːr eluːw toroŋkoːl mæːj || ruwo mæːj kːaːl re lo arol imʷal rʉːʂaj priːmaːl tæːtæːj || ikːaːl mæːj kːa aj æfiʂij bʷe aj bʷe təːtæ wɔːl bwe ixa re arap ŋælij iːmʷ me re lːaŋ sæŋij luːxal iːmʷ/
Ikoa iyoa tiwoouw rakiy iyoa kukkuleey be ibe tooeta wool torogkool maay. Lukul ivemem ge eyoor eluuw torogkool maay. Ruwo maay kkaal re lou aroul ivoal ruuixoay priimooal taataay. Ikkooal maay kkoa oay afixiy be oay be tooeta wool bwe ikoa re oaroap galiy iiv me re lloag sagiy luukal iiv

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:06 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
Karch wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:42 pm Saipan Carolinian
Is this in Saipan or somewhere we might call Carolina? Either way...

/p bʷ t x (b d g k)/ p bw t kh b d g k
/p: pʷ: t: k:/ pp bbw tt kk
/m mʷ (n) ŋ/ m mw (x) n
/m: mʷ: (n:) ŋ:/ mm mmw (x) nn
/f s ʂ h/ f s sh h
/f: s: tʂ:/ ff ss ssh
/w r l j/ w r l y
/w: l: j:/ ww ll jj

/i ʉ u e ə o æ a ɔ/ i eu u e eo o ae a oa
/i: ʉ: u: e: ə: o: æ: a: ɔ:/ í éu ú é éo ó áe á óa

/ixa ija tiwoːw ræxij ija xukːuleːj bʷe ibʷe təːtæ wɔːl toroŋkoːl mæːj || luxul imʷemem ŋe ejoːr eluːw toroŋkoːl mæːj || ruwo mæːj kːaːl re lo arol imʷal rʉːʂaj priːmaːl tæːtæːj || ikːaːl mæːj kːa aj æfiʂij bʷe aj bʷe təːtæ wɔːl bwe ixa re arap ŋælij iːmʷ me re lːaŋ sæŋij luːxal iːmʷ/

Ikha iya tiwów raekhiy iya khukkuléy bwe ibwe teo tae wóal toronkól máey.
Lukhul imwemem ne eyór elúw tornkól máey,
Ruwo máey kkál re lo arol imwal réushay prímál táetáey.
Ikkál máey kka ay aefishiy bwe ay bwe téotae wóal bwe ikha re arap naeliy ímw me re llan saeniy lúkhal ímw.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:16 pm
by bradrn
Saipan Carolinian

/p bʷ t x/ ⟨b bw d x⟩
/p: pʷ: t: k:/ ⟨p pw t k⟩
/m mʷ (n) ŋ/ ⟨m mw (n) ng⟩
/m: mʷ: (n:) ŋ:/ ⟨m̄ m̄w (n̄) n̄g⟩
/f s ʂ h/ ⟨f s sh h⟩
/f: s: tʂ:/ ⟨v z c⟩
/w r l j/ ⟨w r l y⟩
/w: l: j:/ ⟨w̄ ll ȳ⟩
+ /b d g k/ ⟨bb dd gg g⟩

/i ʉ u e ə o æ a ɔ/ ⟨i ü u e ö o ä a ɔ⟩
/i: ʉ: u: e: ə: o: æ: a: ɔ:/ ⟨ii üü uu ee öö oo ää aa ɔɔ⟩

/ixa ija tiwoːw ræxij ija xukːuleːj bʷe ibʷe təːtæ wɔːl toroŋkoːl mæːj || luxul imʷemem ŋe ejoːr eluːw toroŋkoːl mæːj || ruwo mæːj kːaːl re lo arol imʷal rʉːʂaj priːmaːl tæːtæːj || ikːaːl mæːj kːa aj æfiʂij bʷe aj bʷe təːtæ wɔːl bwe ixa re arap ŋælij iːmʷ me re lːaŋ sæŋij luːxal iːmʷ/

Ixa iya diwoow räxiy iya xukuleey bwe ibwe döödä wɔɔl doronggool määy. Luxul imwemem nge eyoor eluuw doronggool määy. Ruwo määy kaal re lo arol imwal rüüshay briimaal däädääy. Ikaal määy ka ay äfishiy bwe döödä wɔɔl bwe ixa re arab ngäliy iimw me re llang sängiy luuxal iimw.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:46 pm
by Nortaneous
/p bʷ t x/ <p b d k>
/p: pʷ: t: k:/ <pp bb dd kk>
/m mʷ (n) ŋ/ <m mw n g>
/m: mʷ: (n:) ŋ:/ <mm mmw nn gg>
/f s ʂ h/ <f s t ch>
/f: s: tʂ:/ <ff ss tt>
/w r l j/ <w r l i>
/w: l: j:/ <ww ll ij>

/i ʉ u e ə o æ a ɔ/ <i ü u e ö o ä a å>
/i: ʉ: u: e: ə: o: æ: a: ɔ:/ <Vh>
/ij/ <ï>

/ixa ija tiwoːw ræxij ija xukːuleːj bʷe ibʷe təːtæ wɔːl toroŋkoːl mæːj || luxul imʷemem ŋe ejoːr eluːw toroŋkoːl mæːj || ruwo mæːj kːaːl re lo arol imʷal rʉːʂaj priːmaːl tæːtæːj || ikːaːl mæːj kːa aj æfiʂij bʷe aj bʷe təːtæ wɔːl bwe ixa re arap ŋælij iːmʷ me re lːaŋ sæŋij luːxal iːmʷ/
Ika ïa diwohw räkï ïa kukkulehi be ibe döhdä wåhl dorogkohl mähi. Lukul imwemem ge eiohr eluhw dorogkohl mähi. Ruwo mähi kkahl re lo arol imwal rühtai prihmahl tähtähi. Ikkahl mähi kka ai äfitï be ai be döhdä wåhl be ika re arap gälï ihmw me re llag sägï luhkal ihmw.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:37 am
by mèþru
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:06 pmIs this in Saipan or somewhere we might call Carolina? Either way...
Carolinian language
The Carolinian people come from the Caroline Islands, but most of them live in the Marianas.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:39 pm
by Karch
/p bʷ t x/ <p b(u) t g>
/p: pʷ: t: k:/ <p p(u) t k>
/m mʷ (n) ŋ/ <m mu n n>
/m: mʷ: (n:) ŋ:/ <m mu n n>
/f s ʂ h/ <f s s h>
/f: s: tʂ:/ <f s ts>
/w r l j/ <u r l i>
/w: l: j:/ <u l i>

The phonemes /b d g k/ <b d g k> can occur in loanwords.

/i ʉ u e ə o æ a ɔ/ <i u u e e o a a o>
/i: ʉ: u: e: ə: o: æ: a: ɔ:/ <i u u e e o a a o>

/ixa ija tiwoːw ræxij ija xukːuleːj bʷe ibʷe təːtæ wɔːl toroŋkoːl mæːj || luxul imʷemem ŋe ejoːr eluːw toroŋkoːl mæːj || ruwo mæːj kːaːl re lo arol imʷal rʉːʂaj priːmaːl tæːtæːj || ikːaːl mæːj kːa aj æfiʂij bʷe aj bʷe təːtæ wɔːl bwe ixa re arap ŋælij iːmʷ me re lːaŋ sæŋij luːxal iːmʷ/

<Iga ia tiou ragi ia gukulei bue ibue teta wol toronkol mai. Lugul imuemem ne eior elu toronkol mai. Ruo mai kal re lo arol imual rusai primal tatai. Ikal mai ka ai afisi bue ai bue teta wol bue iga re arap nali im me re lan sani lugal im.>

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:43 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
mèþru wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:37 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:06 pmIs this in Saipan or somewhere we might call Carolina? Either way...
Carolinian language
The Carolinian people come from the Caroline Islands, but most of them live in the Marianas.
So it's a real language. The more you know!

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:38 pm
by Travis B.
Karch wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:39 pm /p bʷ t x/ <p b(u) t g>
/p: pʷ: t: k:/ <p p(u) t k>
/m mʷ (n) ŋ/ <m mu n n>
/m: mʷ: (n:) ŋ:/ <m mu n n>
/f s ʂ h/ <f s s h>
/f: s: tʂ:/ <f s ts>
/w r l j/ <u r l i>
/w: l: j:/ <u l i>

The phonemes /b d g k/ <b d g k> can occur in loanwords.

/i ʉ u e ə o æ a ɔ/ <i u u e e o a a o>
/i: ʉ: u: e: ə: o: æ: a: ɔ:/ <i u u e e o a a o>

/ixa ija tiwoːw ræxij ija xukːuleːj bʷe ibʷe təːtæ wɔːl toroŋkoːl mæːj || luxul imʷemem ŋe ejoːr eluːw toroŋkoːl mæːj || ruwo mæːj kːaːl re lo arol imʷal rʉːʂaj priːmaːl tæːtæːj || ikːaːl mæːj kːa aj æfiʂij bʷe aj bʷe təːtæ wɔːl bwe ixa re arap ŋælij iːmʷ me re lːaŋ sæŋij luːxal iːmʷ/

<Iga ia tiou ragi ia gukulei bue ibue teta wol toronkol mai. Lugul imuemem ne eior elu toronkol mai. Ruo mai kal re lo arol imual rusai primal tatai. Ikal mai ka ai afisi bue ai bue teta wol bue iga re arap nali im me re lan sani lugal im.>
Orthographic use of italics is utterly horrific. :D

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:42 am
by mèþru
but is it worse than ɇ?
(IMO yes, and also there's nothing wrong with ɇ if it is following a pattern of other characters with stroke or bar)

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:59 am
by Travis B.
mèþru wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:42 am but is it worse than ɇ?
(IMO yes, and also there's nothing wrong with ɇ if it is following a pattern of other characters with stroke or bar)
<ɇ> is a character which only makes sense to use if one is A) using a typewriter and B) has run out of more sensible overstruck characters to use. As most people creating orthographies today have access to computers which support Unicode and don't have access to typewriters, this one is best left to the scrap heap of history.

OTOH there is no such excuse for italics, since typewriters typically did not support them in the first place.

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:18 pm
by Nortaneous
it is also possible to e⃥. new tone marking

edit: unfortunately the board's font does not support the most excellent orthographic addition that is the combining backslash, at least for me

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:27 am
by mèþru
I will die on the hill of <ɇ> not being that bad.

the language which started this all:
More: show
/œ.ɡe.fœ.qeɡ/ [œ.ɡeˈfœ.qeɡ]

/p b t d tʃ k ɡ q/ <p b t d ť k g q>
/m n ŋᶢ/ <m n ŋ~ng>
/f v θ̟ ð̟ s z ʃ h/ <f v þ ð s z š h>
/t̪θ ts dʒ/ <tþ ts ž~dŕ/
/r ɹ̠ʷ l/ <ŕ~r r l>

/i y u/ <i y u>
/ɪ ʊ~ʉ/ <ì ù~ɨ>
/e ø ɔ ʏ~ɨ/ <e ö~a o oo>
/ə/ <ê~ɇ>
/ɛ/ <è>
/œ/ <a>

/eɪ̯ ai̯ o ɔɪ̯~oɪ̯ aʊ̯ aʊ̱̯/ <ei ai ou oi au å>
marginal phoneme [aʊ̯.ə]

silent <w> from borrowings from other languages

different spellings are etymological, not correlated to allophony
/r/ is <r> in the onset of a syllable with a front vowel, <ŕ> elsewhere
Each single letter is in the actual Agefaqeg alphabet without a diacritic, with the exception of <ŕ ì ê>, which are derived from <r i è>. <ŕ> was in the original script the alpahebt is descended from, and the only letter with a diacritic there (used to represent the non-native distinction of /r ɹ/). <ê> is also ancient, coming from Varikèvi, parent language of Agefaqeg, which holds a status similar to Latin or Sanskrit in Europe or India. All three modifications use the exact same and only diacritic, which always just meant "different" rather than something systematic.

Syllables may begin with:
any consonant besides affricates (including /tʃ/) or /ŋ/
any stop, fricative, and nasal + liquid, excluding /ŋ/
any stop, fricative + l + rhotic, excluding /ŋ/
Syllables may end with:
any consonant (except w)
l + any stop, fricative, and nasal. excluding /ŋ/
rhotic + any other kind of consonant excluding /w ŋ/
It is extremely rare for a root to not have (a) beginning consonant(s), but such words are among the most important and frequently used words.
/ɹ̠ʷ/ cannot precede front vowels in a syllable, and /r/ cannot precede any other vowels in a syllable.
Vowels are usually separated from each other with few exceptions (mainly in a few forms in verbal conjugation)

The only punctuation mark is to represent pauses, regardless of sentence vs clause. There is no case.

ìqiŕz te bamrestyrou,
/ɪ.qirz te bœ.mres.ty.ɹo ||/
[ɪ.qirz te bœˈmres.ty.ɹo ||]

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:52 am
by Nortaneous
Tocharian A

/p (pʲ) t ts c k (kʷ)/
/s ʂ ɕ/
/m (mʲ) n ȵ (ŋ)/
/β~w l r ʎ j/

/a e ə o i ɨ u/

/ma tɨpren sən poɲcɨn sənsaris karipəc saspɨrtβu alək βrəm nəʂ kos ne alasune || kjəlte neʂ βrəsəɕɕi sne βaβleʂu sne psɨl klu ɕβatsi ʂeʂ kəlpəβrɨkʂɨntβən arβər pəpʲɨtkunt βsalu jetβejntu βəʂlən ʂeɲcɨm alasap klu kropluneja kəlpəβrɨkʂɨntu nəkɨntɨm kəppaɲ pakɨr takərɨm sne βaβleʂu sne psɨl klu nəktɨm ɕaβən βlesəntjo psɨləɕɕɨl ʂjək pakɨr takɨm cəmi alasunejis nu tsrəʂʂune prətipəkʂ nantsu tɨmʲo tsrəʂʂune ɲi arkiʂoʂjən pkʷən pruccəmo pɨlskən/

alt analysis - don't know if this is workable or if I've done it right but I have seen it proposed

/a ə/

/ma tprəjn sən pəwɲcn sənsarjs karjpəc sasprtww alək wrəm nəʂ kəws nəj alaswnəj || kjəltəj nəjʂ wrəsəɕɕ snəj wawləjʂw snəj psl klw ɕwatsj ʂəjʂ kəlpə-wrkʂntwən arwər pəpʲtkʷnt wsalw jəjtwəjntw βəʂlən ʂəjɲcm alasap klw krəwplwnəja kəlpə-wrkʂntw nəkntm kəppaɲ pakr takərm snəj wawləjʂw snəj psɨl klw nəktm ɕawən wləjsəntjəw psləɕɕl ʂjək pakr takm cəmʲ alaswnəjjs nw tsrəʂʂwnəj prətjpəkʂ nantsw tmʲəw tsrəʂʂwnəj ɲ arkjʂəwʂjən pkʷən prwccəməw plskən/

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:15 pm
by Karch
/p (pʲ) t ts c k (kʷ)/ <p py t ts c k kw>
/s ʂ ɕ/ <s ṣ sh>
/m (mʲ) n ȵ (ŋ)/ <m my n ñ ŋ>
/β~w l r ʎ j/ <w l r ly y>

/a e ə o i ɨ u/ <a e ɨ o i ∅ u>

/ma tɨpren sən poɲcɨn sənsaris karipəc saspɨrtβu alək βrəm nəʂ kos ne alasune || kjəlte neʂ βrəsəɕɕi sne βaβleʂu sne psɨl klu ɕβatsi ʂeʂ kəlpəβrɨkʂɨntβən arβər pəpʲɨtkunt βsalu jetβejntu βəʂlən ʂeɲcɨm alasap klu kropluneja kəlpəβrɨkʂɨntu nəkɨntɨm kəppaɲ pakɨr takərɨm sne βaβleʂu sne psɨl klu nəktɨm ɕaβən βlesəntjo psɨləɕɕɨl ʂjək pakɨr takɨm cəmi alasunejis nu tsrəʂʂune prətipəkʂ nantsu tɨmʲo tsrəʂʂune ɲi arkiʂoʂjən pkʷən pruccəmo pɨlskən/
Ma tpren sɨn poñcn sɨnsaris karipɨc sasprtwu alɨk wrɨm nɨṣ kos ne alasune. Kyɨlte neṣ wrɨsɨsshi sne wawleṣu sne psl klu shwatsi ṣeṣ kɨlpɨwrkṣntwɨn arwɨr pɨpytkunt wsalu yetweintu wɨṣlɨn ṣeñcm alasap klu kropluneya kɨlpɨwrkṣntu nɨkntm kɨppañ pakr takɨrm sne wawleṣu sne psl klu nɨktm shawɨn wlesɨntyo pslɨsshl ṣyɨk pakr takm cɨmi alasuneyis nu tsrɨṣṣune prɨtipɨkṣ nantsu tmyo tsrɨṣṣune ñi arkiṣoṣyɨn pkwɨn pruccɨmo plskɨn.