Zompist Bboard Again

I have been getting more comfortable with Brassica lately and I've realized that some forms in Kgáweq’—which features noun incorporation—would have notably different forms when combined. Thanks to Brassica, I've also decided that—like Archaic Vyâ—monosyllabic roots can be accentless (and thanks to some edge cases, there are a scant few accentless disyllables, all of which begin with ʔo-/ʔu-). Additionally, r ŕ in PKT correspond to /*ɹ *ɾ/ for aesthetic reasons (and y /*j/).

A few etyma; combining forms will be given in the o-state of vowel harmony, as is customary, and a prefixed + indicates that the preceding vowel (if any) is forced to creaky phonation:

dę’, -dę’- 'one' < PKT *btyĩy
’u’, -’o’- 'two' < PKT *ʔyuy
łúnâł, +lonal’- < PKT *ʔruralʔĩ
q’átl, -qatlą- 'four' < PKT *ʔqabtlã
kųntlų́r, -kgǫn- 'hand' < PKT *kъŕrũr 'five' (note how the yer drops out when compounding occurs)
tl’iq’, -tleq’- 'six' < PKT *ʔtliqʔ

’okga, -’okga- 'face, countenance, expression' < PKT *bkra
tlógas, -tlogas- 'to boil' < PKT *trubkas
sâgnút, -sgnot- 'porridge' < PKT *sѣbkŕuta 'meal'
’éngen, -’engen- 'machine' < PKT *ʔiŕgen
rósto’, -nosto’a- 'white' < PKT *rustubqa
’odáq, -’odaq- 'red' < PKT *bqubtaq
qǫr, -qǫna- 'yellow' < PKT *qũra
tlál, -tlalah- 'green' < PKT *tnadaf
kgį́sât, -kgęsat- 'blue, black' < PKT *klĩsati

nił, -nel’- 'to be slow' < PKT *nilʔ
qeqtló’ -qtlo’a- 'to run' < PKT *qьqtlyuya
łấqg’its, +laqg’ets- 'to speak' < PKT *ʔlaqʔlits
waan, -wans- 'to strike with a closed fist' < PKT *wans
’úqsuq, -oqsoq- 'to swim' < PKT *uqsuq
łų’ấs, -l’ase- 'to wish death upon' < PKT *lъʔbasi
tólęs, -tólęs- 'to dig' < PKT *tulĩsa
łą́’ǫtl, +lą’ǫtlą- 'to amuse' < PKT *ʔlãʔũtlã
tl’á’as, +tla’asa- 'to push' < PKT *ʔtlaʔasa
sấq, -saq- 'to get s.w.' < PKT *saqu
kųkgų́qg, -kgǫqge- 'to set out (towards s.w.), to advance, to venture (into)'
łą̂kgíts, -lkgetso- 'to stir' < PKT *lѣsklits
tsấts, -tsatse- 'to go, to move, to be in motion' < PKT *tsatsi
nąts’ą́tl, -ntsątla- 'to have' < PKT *ŕѣʔtsãtla
wų́ni’, -wǫne’- 'to assemble' < PKT *wũnwiw
sął, -sąl’- 'air' < PKT *sãlʔ
’iq’, -’eq’- 'water' < PKT *ʔiqʔ
nę́ę́ts, -nęętsa- 'and' < PKT *nĩhtsa
łoqé, -lsqe- 'inclusive or' < PKT *lъsqji
qgiʼ, -qgeʼ- 'exclusive or', (when negated) 'nor' < PKT *qlwiw
sątʼ, -sątʼa- 'except', 'but', 'without' < PKT *sãʔt
-séq’naq- 'house' < PKT *siqʔŕaq
-tqats- 'leg' < PKT *tьqats
net, -net- 'to run' < PKT *nita
kgiłiq, -kgełeq- 'animal' < PKT *klibliq
néyntle, -neyntlye- 'precious stone' < PKT *niyŕlyi 'gem'

’unwį́q, -wnęqe- < PKT *bnwĩqʷi
’ułuq, -luqu- < PKT *bluq

*sь- CATASTROPHIC FAILURE

Most of those tl sequences should've been tł as Kgáweq’ tolerates /tl/ clusters, and I have decided that *-lɬ- *-ɬl- *-ɬs- *-sɬ- [-wɬ- -sl- -ts- -tɬ-].

Some notational conventions:

1. + indicates that an immediate preceding vowel is forced to creaky voice.
2. l_H surfaces as an ejective affricate after a plosive and as plain ł after original *b. (By itself, l typically combines into a plain affricate.)
3. l_N surfaces as l when intervocalic and n when preceding a consonant.
4. n_L surfaces as n when intervocalic, l when following one of n l r (with ll > tł or tl), as tł when following an original ŕ, and as affrication when following a plosive.
5. n_T surfaces as l when following an alveolar.
6. r_n surfaces as n adjacent to a consonant and as r when intervocalic.
7. ś combines with preceding ŕ to surface as ts.
8. _z voices a preceding stop, if any; else, it surfaces as ’ (with original ŕ > n before it).

’atáá’, -taa’- ‘to speak’ < PKT *ѣtasʔ
’éngen, -’engen- ‘machine’ < PKT *ʔiŕgen
’ére’, -r_nereg- < PKT *iŕeg
’iq’, -’eq’- ‘water’ < PKT *ʔiqʔ
’ííqg, -’eeqge- ‘to spread one’s arms’ < PKT *ʔihqli
’ódaq, -’_zodaq- ‘red’ < PKT *bqubtaq
’okga, -kga- ‘face, countenance, expression’ < PTK *bkra (combining form -ga- after nasals)
’ułóręęn, -_złoręęn ‘to pivot, to turn about, to rotate, to suddenly or rapidly change course or direction’ < PKT *blugĩhna
’ułuq, -łuq-
’unwį́q, -wnęq-
’úqsuq, -wqsoq- ‘to swim’ < PKT *uqsuq
’u’, +w’- ‘two’ < PKT *ʔyuy
’wótłe’, -otłe’- ‘to repeatedly fold and unfold s.t. until it breaks or fails from the repetition’ < PKT *butlyiy
dę’, -dę’- ‘one’ < PKT *btyĩy
dostłá’, -’wsta- ‘soil, earth, humus’ < PKT *btъstlag
duwấg, -dwags- ‘hill’ < PKT *tъwagsi
kgíłiq, -kgełeq- ‘animal’ < PKT *klibliq
kgį́sât, -kgęsat- ‘blue, black’ < PKT *klĩsati
kg’útł, +kg’otłes- ‘to rip apart, to violently disassemble, to tear down, to breach’ < PKT *ʔklutlis
kųkgų́qg, -kgǫqge- ‘to set out (towards s.w.), to advance, to venture (into)’ < PKT *kъkʔrũqli
kųntłų́r, -wntł- (archaic -kgǫntłǫlⁿ-) ‘hand’ < PKT *kъŕrũr ‘five’
néyntłe, -neyntłye- ‘precious stone’ < PKT *niyŕlyi ‘gem’
nónał, -nonal’- < PKT *nuralʔ
nónał, +nonal’- < PKT *ʔnunalʔ
łaról, -sola- ‘to jog, to run’ < PKT *lѣsŕula
łą́’ǫtł, +lą’ǫtłą- ‘to amuse’ < PKT *ʔlãʔũtlã
łâkgíts, -skgets ‘to stir’ < PKT *lѣsklits
łâkgíts, -lkg’ets ‘to bubble, to foam, to froth, to boil, to roil’ < PKT *lѣʔklits
łấqg’its, +laqg’ets- ‘to speak’ < PKT *ʔlaqʔlits triggers progressive affrication of immediate prefixes
łoqé, -l_Hsqe- ‘or (inclusive)’ < PKT *lъsqyi
łu’wâs, -(ta)l’ase- ‘to wish death upon’ < PKT *lъʔbasi
łúnâł, +lonal’- < PKT *ʔruralʔĩ
naq, -naq- ‘to press, to push down’ < PKT *naq
nąąq, -nąqs(l)- < PKT *nãqs (l drops before another consonant)
nąts’ą́tl, -ntsątla- ‘to have’ < PKT *ŕѣʔtsãtla
nấrâ’, -nara’w- ‘to roll’ < PKT *naŕabi ‘to push (in a direction)’
net, -nta-/-tla- ‘to run’< PKT *nьta
nę́ę́ts, -nęętsa- ‘and’ < PKT *nĩhtsa
nił, -nel’- ‘to go slowly, to be slow’ < PKT *nilʔ
qeqtłó’, -qtło’ ‘to run’ < PKT *qьqtlyuya q drops after original b
qgi’, -qge’- ‘or (exclusive); (when negated) nor’ < PKT *qlwiw
qg’ǫ́tł, -qg’ǫtła- ‘to scratch (at), to claw (at)’ < PKT *qʔlũtbla
qǫr, -q(ǫ)na- ‘yellow’ < PKT *qъŕã
q’átł, -qatłą- ‘four’ < PKT *ʔqabtlã
q’á’otł, +qa’otła ‘to pour’ < PKT *ʔqwawutla
q’úsâkg’, -qosakg’o- ‘to throw’ < PKT *ʔqusakʔru
reqnátł’, -qanła- ‘to click, to produce a clicking noise; to echolocate, to use sonar (> radar?)’
rósto’, -n_Losto’a- ‘white’ < PKT *rustubqa
sął, -sąl’- ‘air’ < PKT *sãlʔ
sąt’, -q’t’a- ‘but, except, without, sans‘ < PKT *sѣtʔã
sâgnút, -śgnot- ‘porridge’ < PKT *sѣbkŕuta ‘meal’
sấq, -saqo- ‘to get s.w.’ < PKT *saqu
-séq’naq- ‘house, dwelling, domicile, home’ < PKT *siqʔŕaq
síldâ’, -selda’- ‘to store, to save up, to sequester, to have s.t. in reserve’ < PKT *silbtjaju
tłéwats, -ntłewats- ‘to remember, to recall’ < PKT *ŕliwats
tłóg, -tłogas- ‘to boil’ < PKT *trubkas
tłówas, -tłowa’- ‘to cook or roast over fire’ < PKT *truwasʔ
tł’áwł, +tławł- ‘to understand, to know s.t.’ < PKT *ʔtrarʔla
tł’á’as, -tła’as- ‘to push’ < PKT *ʔtlaʔasa
tł’iq’, +tłeq’- ‘six’ < PKT *ʔtliqʔ
tł’úq, +tłoqos- ‘to connect, to join, to meet (up), to find’ < PKT *ʔtluqus
-tqats- ‘leg’ < PKT *tьqats
tsấts, -tsatse- ‘to go, to move, to be in motion’ < PKT *tsatsi
tsudấts, -tsatse- ‘to slide’ < PKT *tsъbtatsi
ts’ą́wękg’, +tsawekg’a- ‘to fight, to protest, to challenge’ < PKT *ʔtsjãwĩkʔla
tį́į́wįk, -tęęwęk- ‘to drift’ < PKT *tĩwhĩk
tlál, -tlalah- ‘green’ < PKT *tnadafa
tólęs, -tolęs- ‘to dig’ < PKT *tulĩsa t > d after original b ~ w?
tólęs, -tolęs[aj/e]- ‘to exploit’ < PKT *tulĩsaj ‘to mine’
tu’u, -do- ‘fire’ < PKT *tъbu (yes, that is the result of regular sound changes)
waan, -wans- ‘to strike with a closed fist’ < PKT *wans
wísâ’, -wesa’o- ‘to fly’ < PKT *wisjaju
wų́ni’, -wǫne’- ‘to assemble’ < PKT *wũnwiw

*sь- CATASTROPHIC FAILURE

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon May 26, 2025 12:44 pm *sь- CATASTROPHIC FAILURE

Eh? What’s that?

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue May 27, 2025 12:36 am

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon May 26, 2025 12:44 pm *sь- CATASTROPHIC FAILURE

Eh? What’s that?

Perhaps Man in Space is unhappy with how his sound changes worked out?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue May 27, 2025 12:53 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue May 27, 2025 12:36 am

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon May 26, 2025 12:44 pm *sь- CATASTROPHIC FAILURE

Eh? What’s that?

Perhaps Man in Space is unhappy with how his sound changes worked out?

Quite the opposite. Kgáweq’ has a “success affix” and one of the affixes is a catastrophic failure marker. I forgot to delete that before I hit post.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue May 27, 2025 6:54 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue May 27, 2025 12:53 am

Perhaps Man in Space is unhappy with how his sound changes worked out?

Quite the opposite. Kgáweq’ has a “success affix” and one of the affixes is a catastrophic failure marker. I forgot to delete that before I hit post.

Ah, thank you.

Kgáweq’ morphophonetics reëxamined

Tertiary stress

There are a very few words that are stressed on the third syllable—’unonáq < *bŕъnaq, for instance. These usually have something to do with a historical *b.

*b movie

The exact nature of the phoneme conventionally transcribed *b in PKT is not definitively understood and is the subject of furious conjecture. Its reflexes display highly idiosyncratic behaviors, but the exact development of and motivation for these behaviors are contested to various—often high—degrees.

Negation

The negative morpheme in Kg has long been tło’- or something like it. Now, it has two allomorphs—the default realization tł(o)’- and a consonantally harmonious variant ts(o)’-. These come from an original *tlyuy, which was a verb along the lines of ‘to deny, to contradict’.

The success affix

The leftmost slot on the verb belongs to the so-called “success affix”. This name may be slightly misleading as it has some overlap with modals (such as the conative or desiderative).

yǫt-	DESIDERATIVE	event predicted, this outcome desired
dyǫt-	NEGATIVE DESIDERATIVE	event not predicted, this outcome desired
q’ee-/q’y-	AFFIRMATIVE MIRATIVE	event occurred, surprisingly
Ø-	AFFIRMATIVE	event occurred
syents-	WITHSTANTIVE	event occurred, despite preparations or efforts contrariwise
wo’-	TOTAL SUCCESS	event occurred with all intended aims achieved
gn(e)-	ACCIDENTAL SUCCESS	event occurred accidentally
k’(a)-	BARELY	event occurred, but only just sufficiently to be considered a success
gna-	ADVERSARIAL	event occurred, despite obstacles in the execution
nyąd-	DEFECTIVE	event occurred but only partially completed
tl-	CONATIVE	an attempt was made, outcome unknown/irrelevant
se-	ALMOST	event did not occur, but came close
do-C / -te-V	PARTIAL SUCCESS	event occurred with partial success
ą-	FAILURE	fail
s-	CATASTROPHIC FAILURE	epic fail
tł(o)’-	NEGATIVE	event did not occur/statement disaffirmed
q’eel-	NEGATIVE MIRATIVE	event did not occur/statement disaffirmed, surprisingly
keed-	AVERSIVE	event predicted, this outcome unwanted
kyed-	NEGATIVE AVERSIVE	event not predicted, this outcome unwanted

There is also productive reduplication marking a frequentative, but that is an operation that deals with the root and will be dealt with later.

The conative in -tl- is a reduced form of an earlier verb *tni ‘to want, to plan’. The vowel surfaces when unwieldy clusters form.

The failure affix -ą- < *aʔ; this glottal stop shows up in hiatus, but does not surface otherwise (and does not ejectify stops).

Object prefixes, object concord, and object incorporation

tl-V / tan-C	1SG	tsan-	1DL	taną-	1TR	te’-	1PL
yąą(w)-	2SG	yąąl-	2DL	yąąn-	2TR	yen-	2PL
tsa’w-V / tso-C	3.ANIM.SG	tsats-V / tsał-C	3.ANIM.DL	tsą’s-V / tsą’-C	3.ANIM.TR	ts’w-V / ts’aw-C	3.ANIM.PL
awn-V / a’wan-C	3.INAN.SG	ąwn-V / a’wąn-C	3INAN.DL	ał-V / a’wl-C	3INAN.TR	oł-V / o’wal-C	3.INAN.PL
eer-	REL

Fully incorporated nouns can appear in this slot but I have to go to work soon so they'll have to wait.


Version

Version (à la Georgian) alters the argument structure of the verb. This has implications for the animacy hierarchy in Kg.

-Ø-	STANDARD	-’w-	INVERSION
-(y)ee-	RELATIVE	-n-	OBLIQUE
-l(e)-	SUBJECTIVE	-nlee-	RELATIVE OBLIQUE
-t(e)-	1 OBJECTIVE	-d(e)-	1 CAUSATIVE
C-ę- / V-yą-	2 OBJECTIVE	-nę-	2 CAUSATIVE

Third-person markers will be dealt with later because the noun class, version, and person-marking system is a mess and there's considerable concord going on.

Ooh! My interest has been thoroughly piqued and I have the questions/requests/comments to prove it.

• *b sounds fascinating; is there any more you know about it, or is that a way of saying you want to do more fun with it?¹ At the very least, I assume it vocalises to /u/ in Kgáweq’
• The success affix interesting. I love CATASTROPHIC FAILURE ‘epic fail’, and I especially love the near homophony² with se-
• I assume -tl- becomes tli- when the vowel surfaces?
• Could I have examples of version, please; I'm not sure I fully understand it?

¹ I only mention this because I have definitely written something along the lines ‘this has interesting congnates across the family and is highly debated’ before I have any sort of clue about how it might be debated
² No spell check, not homophobia

The Peoples of the Two Waters (i.e., the Sobadegh to the south and the strait to the north). Who hate each other. A founding myth that involved deep betrayal that may or may not have happened back in the day…I’m thinking it was a wife betraying her husband. The Täptäg are inclined to take grievous offense on account of the deceased, while the Kgáweq’ are likely to sympathize with the wife (this is a hint of how they have assimilated somewhat to their environs, so to speak, as the Kg ultimately are a breakoff faction from one decidedly north of the Messerini line who have ventured southward). Of course it would likely be decorous to come up with a much more ambiguous take on it; perhaps it relates to the Bom Ikkeb in some way—either because he actually was involved (however played up or down it came to be retold), or it was ascribed to him (as are many other things).

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed May 28, 2025 10:27 am Ooh! My interest has been thoroughly piqued and I have the questions/requests/comments to prove it.

• *b sounds fascinating; is there any more you know about it, or is that a way of saying you want to do more fun with it?¹ At the very least, I assume it vocalises to /u/ in Kgáweq’
• The success affix interesting. I love CATASTROPHIC FAILURE ‘epic fail’, and I especially love the near homophony² with se-
• I assume -tl- becomes tli- when the vowel surfaces?
• Could I have examples of version, please; I'm not sure I fully understand it?

¹ I only mention this because I have definitely written something along the lines ‘this has interesting congnates across the family and is highly debated’ before I have any sort of clue about how it might be debated
² No spell check, not homophobia

I am not ignoring you, I just haven't had the time and energy to give you the in-depth examples I feel your queries warrant. Please stay tuned.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed May 28, 2025 10:27 am*b sounds fascinating; is there any more you know about it, or is that a way of saying you want to do more fun with it?¹ At the very least, I assume it vocalises to /u/ in Kgáweq’

I don’t think I can really speak to *b without bringing up this bit I recently shared elsewhere on the board:

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 2:49 am. . .say the consonants [in a given syllable’s glyph block] are ’-w-n-t, there are several valid syllables that unpointed look identical: ’awnt, ’want, this is actually a bad example because the w vocalizes, but just the pointing tells you where to syllabify in many cases. I have not quite yet figured out how to handle the ’w- in the writing. It is a stupidly frequent occurrence because the idea was that Kgáweq’ lacked bilabial consonants (sort of like as Mohawk does), so when faced with the prospect of borrowing a word with *p *b, they improvised.

Way back in my halcyon days, Campbell’s Historical Linguistics was a required text in my Intro to Historical class in college, and there was a language family (it was Mesoamerican but without the text at hand I cannot recall which specifically) for which several constituent languages’ reflexes were given to compare. The parent language had borrowed a word that, in Spanish, had had initial b-; all languages in the family, which lacked any /b/, reflected this as p-…except one. One stood alone with an amusingly anomalous, but still actually logical, exception: /?w/. I remember thinking something along the lines of “Dude, this still satisfies +stop, +labial, and +vc, that’s awesome”. Anyway, that has become an internal meme, and it applies to Kgáweq’ historical linguistics.

*b is sort of the KT flavor of a coefficient sonantique. Nominally it does look sort of like a bog-standard garden-variety /b/, but much like the laryngeals in IE, it did some unusual stuff that defies identification:

• A very few clusters could start a minor syllable in PKT; some of them had *b as the initial (e.g., *bŕ-).
• You are correct about it vocalizing in some situations.
• *b also has the distinction of having very likely been a voiced segment. You get a little bit of this in the historical development of Kg, but its effects are more pronounced in Tä.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed May 28, 2025 10:27 amThe success affix interesting. I love CATASTROPHIC FAILURE ‘epic fail’, and I especially love the near homophony² with se-

The homophony was unintentional but I agree that it is amusing. I wonder what dialectal stuff might replace or reinforce it.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed May 28, 2025 10:27 amI assume -tl- becomes tli- when the vowel surfaces?

Yes.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed May 28, 2025 10:27 amCould I have examples of version, please; I'm not sure I fully understand it?

I’m not sure I fully understand it either, but I shall try.

Here’s a sample intransitive verb; I'm just using a 3SG prefix a- because I’ve yet to work out noun class prefixes and concord (of which Kg has a ton).

aq’ą́teq

a-

3SG

q’ą́teq

be.dangerous

'it is dangerous'

The same verb with first-person objective version appears thus:

taq’ą́teq

t-

1SG.OBJ.V

a-

3SG

q’ą́teq

be.dangerous

'it endangers me, it is hazardous to me' (subtext: my vulnerability is somehow relevant, e.g. suppose I have dietary allergies but nobody else here does)

Second-person behaves similarly:

yąrq’ą́teq

yą-

2SG.OBJ.V

r-

3SG

q’ą́teq

be.dangerous

'it is a threat to you, you are in danger of it'

Another use can be like so:

gnasgnotęltłógyon

gna-

ADVERS

-sgnot-

porridge

ę-

2SG.VER

s-

1

tłóg

to.boil

-yo

PST

-n

F.ADDR

'I (through much travail) boiled you (f.) some porridge'

There's also an oblique version affix -n- that promotes the instrument or benefactor to the direct object:

tso’tqatsnelnet

tso’-

NEG

-tqats-

leg

n-

OBL.VER

l-

1

net

to.run

'I did not run by the use of my legs'

There's also relative version, which, as the name implies, involves relativization:

akgéł’aa syentsataq’ kgeł’aayeeyątł’á’as

a-

CONC

kgéł’aa

stone

syents-

WITHST

a-

3

taq’

to.split

-yo

PST

kgeł’aa-

stone

-yee-

REL.VER

yą-

2

tł’á’as

to.throw

'the stone that you pushed fell to pieces (despite your best efforts)'

You can also apply causative version. Compare:

tsoyąq’ǫ́’oyo

tso-

3SG.ANIM

yą-

2

q’ǫ́’o

to.kill

-yo

PST

'you killed him'

tsodyąq’ǫ́’oyo

tso-

3SG.ANIM

d-

1.CAUS

yą-

2

q’ǫ́’o

to.kill

-yo

PST

'you made me kill him'

I'm considering having the past marker -yo surface as e or i following a back vowel.

We've also got inversion, which is basically a switcheroo with the theta-roles. This is typically employed to allow you to say meaningful things whilst still obeying the strict, and convoluted, animacy hierarchy present in Kg, which is yet to be fully described (stay tuned).

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Jun 15, 2025 5:42 pm This is typically employed to allow you to say meaningful things whilst still obeying the strict, and convoluted, animacy hierarchy present in Kg, which is yet to be fully described (stay tuned).

I’d love to hear more about this!

You certainly said so but I missed it, but what is the sound value of the digraph kg?

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Jun 15, 2025 5:42 pm Much interesting stuff, but at a length I'm not quoting it in full¹

• Thank you for the information about *b. I am now curious about what it does in Täptäg².
• Homophony is indeed fun.
• Thank you for the confirmation about tli
• Thank you for the information about version, especially all the examples – I am now mentally replacing it with ‘weird very fun applicativish thing’. I second the request for information about inversion.

¹ Not that this is a bad thing. I think it was a very good length, just too long to quote fully
² I hope that's right; I've not checked it

Today’s post is going to be a grab bag. I’ve just installed Obsidian on my desktop machine and it is proving incredibly useful. So, whilst porting over certain data to Obsidian form, I’ve had occasion to revisit certain topics I’ve not touched in quite a while. I am of course also responding to audience questions and providing some developments into recent organic research (as I said above, I just installed Obsidian).

---

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:41 amYou certainly said so but I missed it, but what is the sound value of the digraph kg?

/kx/. Likewise, qg /qχ/.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:55 pmThank you for the information about *b.
[. . .]
Thank you for the confirmation about tli
[. . .]
Thank you for the information about version, especially all the examples – I am now mentally replacing it with ‘weird very fun applicativish thing’

You're welcome!

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:55 pmHomophony is indeed fun.

It's all the more amusing when, by no deliberate intent on your own, two words collapse together and you have to figure out what to make of it.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:55 pmI am now curious about what it [*b] does in Täptäg².
[. . .]
² I hope that's right; I've not checked it

Looks right to me. It sticks around more in Täptäg.

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bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Jun 15, 2025 11:34 pmI’d love to hear more about this [inversion]!

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:55 pmI second the request for information about inversion.

You’re in luck.

Inversion and the Animacy Hierarchy in Kgáweq’

The Kg animacy hierarchy is as follows, from most to least animate:

1. Deities, metaphysical beings, deceased persons
2. Natural forces, emotions
3. Government and military officials
4. Technicians, mechanics, medics, clergy
5. Speech act participants (2 > 1 > 3), body parts
6. Masses of people, populations
7. Tools
8. Computers and electronic systems
9. Engines, machines, vehicles
10. Animals
11. Plants, microbes, bacteria, viruses, fungi
12. Tangible objects
13. Raw substances
14. Locations
15. All else

Any word lower on the hierarchy than another must appear later in the phrase than the higher one(s). This includes when the argument only appears as a pronominal affix on the verb (with the exception of version markers because those are wildcards).

gnerewtląnyo

gn(e)-

ACCIDENT

-rew-

blood

t(e)-

VER.1.OBJ

ląn

to.drink

-yo

PST

‘he drank my blood’

sdaatstanąkgǫ́key

s-

CAT.FAIL

daats-

away.from

tl-tan-

1SG.OBJ

ą-

2SG.SBJ

kgǫ́key

look.at

‘you cannot look away from me’

If you want to have, say, a second-person object with a first-person subject, you would then use the inversion marker -’w-.

sdaats’tł’wąkgǫ́key

s-

CAT.FAIL

daats-

away.from

tl-

1SG.OBJ

-’w-

INV

ą-

2.SBJ

kgǫ́key

look.at

‘I cannot look away from you’

---

Subject prefixes

Subject prefixes in Kg appear thus:

1 le-
2 ą-
3M t(a)-
3F o-/w-
3INAN q’-

Note that the third-person inanimate marker does not change based on noun class, leaving everything else lexically determined, but the animacy hierarchy must still be observed.

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Preverbs

Preverbs appear in the slot between the negative and the success affix.

daats-* ‘away (from)’
dąt- ‘on an edge, along an edge, around the edge (of)’
gąr- ‘downstream, downriver; away (along a route)’
gen- ‘up-and-down, vertically, hopping, jumping’
go- ‘between, betwixt, among, amongst, within, inter-’
kę- ‘up, upwards, to above, above, over’
łe’- ‘upstream, upriver; towards (along a route)’
ne- ‘along an incline, along a slant, along a grade, uphill/downhill’
q’a’y- ‘out of, out from, outwards’
qgąs- ‘(towards) here’
q’ol- ‘haphazardly’
ree- ‘(in) circular motion, around and around, circularly’
ro- ‘side-to-side, from side to side, horizontally, slipping, sliding’
sa- ‘down, downwards, to below, under, underneath’
sad- ‘randomly, by chance, without oversight, with no input’
sel- ‘along a set path’
tlę- ‘carelessly, dangerously, foolishly, foolhardily’
tsǫ- ‘within, inside, in’
yǫkǫ- ‘into, inwards’
’ats- ‘outside (of)’
’es- ‘from place to place’

* This aa has a variable u-state outcome (ee or ii) depending on dialect.

---

Remarks on Vyâic

EDIT: I just realized this was put down and picked up a few times so has some contradictions and outdated stuff in it. It’s late here and we are in the midst of a heatwave (and my house has no central A/C) so I’ll fix it when I get to it.

I am not confident in my ability to do sound changes manually for any reasonable length of time. Often I’ll find myself in situations where I wanted, or wanted to prohibit, certain features from a phonemic/phonetic standpoint and then attempt to devise workarounds, and then I tinker with X parameter whilst not remembering Y and then I go back later with more, different, data and I get Z out when I’m expecting W and it turns out it’s all because I failed to realize that issues with conditioning would give me trouble with Y...you get the idea.

I have come across some interesting results as I’ve continued to try things in Brassica, and also some ways to reconcile certain things about the language whose mutual compatibility is a little undefined.

One source (just how productive it was is a matter of considerable debate) of semantic change in Archaic Vyâ (hereinafter AV) was the simple drop of accent. This is evident in the name of the language itself: Vyâ /vjə/ ‘Vyâ Mountains’ from *əwyə~ə augmentative of *əwyə > vyấ /vjə́/ ‘foothill, plain, piedmont’. The augmentative itself in Proto-Vyâic operated thus:

1. If the final vowel is *a, reduplicate the syllable: *bra ~ *bra~bra.
2. Likewise with *ə: *brə ~ *brə~brə.
3. If the final syllable has *Ø in it then you're going to have a syllabified *u *i from *(C)w- *(C)y- in the mix. But in this case instead of syllabifying themselves, they change to *-əgu *-gya: *ganwØ = *ganu ~ *ganəgu, *bsadyØ = *bsadi ~ *bsadgya.

By the time PV developed into AV, we end up with the following:


The PV syllable looked thus:

( C ) ( g / r / n / w / y / s / ː ) V

The initial syllable could feature a “geminate” of sorts, but this would surface as an initial *h-.

Geminations had morphological implications in PV that were exaggerated in AV. If a syllable in PV had a biconsonantal cluster, that second consonant was one of *g *n *r *w *y. In the case of the latter pair, these have the advantage that they tolerate being syllabified.

• The lengthened grade of, say, *krəta or *byØdyØ = *bidi would typically geminate the onset of the first consonant in the final syllable (so, here, *krətta, *biddi).
• *wyØ = *wi and *ywØ = *yu gain a excrescent *g and syllabify: *ugi, *igu.
• When that second consonant is one of *w *y and followed by a *a *ə then you'd simply delete the final vowel and promote the glide to vowel status, geminating the consonant in the bargain: *kədjwa ~ *kəddju, *kagya ~ *kaggi.
• If that consonant is *r, gemination instead impels it to promote to *d, with the a previous stop becoming *v (if peripheral) or *y (if coronal): *kadjra ~ *kayra, *kabrə ~ *kavdə.
• *g became *y: *badgə ~ *badyə.
• *n, inexplicably, changed to s: *dgagna ~ *dgagsa.
• *s fortited to *t *th *d, as appropriate, and ejected an *i into the previous syllable (or on the beginning of the word if relevant): *igunsa ~ *igwinsa.

And now for a momentary detour.

*m *n m n
*p *^mb *t *ⁿd *ts *ⁿdz *k *^ŋg p mb t nd c nj k ng
*f *θ *s *w f z s w

*ɒ *o *u *ɨ *æ *e *i å o y a e i

Maximal syllable was ( C ) ( n / s / f / w ) V ( C ). As you might infer from the phonotactics, *θ was already merged with *n in some notable circumstances, such as when the second consonant in the onset. Notably, tautosyllabic sequences ^Xcz- ^Xnjz- do not occur as lenition of *θ in secondary position was what led to *n in this position in the first place (strictly-initial *θ- did not lenite; it only did so under pressure from moraic constraints); similarly, tautosyllabic onset ^Xzn- does not occur because it would've been a geminate fricative in the onset prior to the second fricative leniting and tautosyllabic onset ^Xcs- ^Xnjs-) do not occur as this would produce a geminate fricative, albeit a prestopped one, in the onset.

The prenasalized series *^mb *ⁿd *ⁿj *^ŋ seems to have been realized as plain-voiced in the coda. (I don't know, either.) When you have disyllabic *{S/Z}^NZ clusters they typically just changed to a geminate voiced one.

gen dump:
*njwåf
*cupngazzis
*njfas
*tåmcutåz
*ndny 'piece of furniture, meuble'
*twamtwyf (looks like a Welsh toponym)
*tåcåz
*wazwu
*snåtnym (a nickname of address used when addressing someone who has just sneezed)
*puddec
*njicåjkym > *njicåckym? *njicåkkym? *njicåccym? *njicåjgym?

Ultimately what I'm trying to do is use the word fplór 'weather' in a language...I did some brief work into a language with a minimalist phonology some years (literal years) ago. I only remember fragments, but that word shape and concomitant meaning have stuck with me ever since.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 9:55 pm And now for a momentary detour.

*m *n m n
*p *^mb *t *ⁿd *ts *ⁿdz *k *^ŋg p mb t nd c nj k ng
*f *θ *s *w f z s w

Nice inventory! One thing though is you could get away with writing *^mb *ⁿd *ⁿdz *^ŋg as b d j g.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 9:55 pm *ɒ *o *u *ɨ *æ *e *i å o y a e i

I think you forgot a u here.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 9:55 pm The prenasalized series *^mb *ⁿd *ⁿj *^ŋ seems to have been realized as plain-voiced in the coda. (I don't know, either.) When you have disyllabic *{S/Z}^NZ clusters they typically just changed to a geminate voiced one.

I definitely recommend prenasalized/plain-voiced allophony myself.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 11:28 pm

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 9:55 pm And now for a momentary detour.

*m *n m n
*p *^mb *t *ⁿd *ts *ⁿdz *k *^ŋg p mb t nd c nj k ng
*f *θ *s *w f z s w

Nice inventory! One thing though is you could get away with writing *^mb *ⁿd *ⁿdz *^ŋg as b d j g.

That is true, though it’s a bit of a personal preference to explicitly write the nasal component, at least for my own keeping things straight.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 11:28 pm

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 9:55 pm *ɒ *o *u *ɨ *æ *e *i å o y a e i

I think you forgot a u here.

Your thought is correct.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 11:28 pm

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 9:55 pm The prenasalized series *^mb *ⁿd *ⁿj *^ŋ seems to have been realized as plain-voiced in the coda. (I don't know, either.) When you have disyllabic *{S/Z}^NZ clusters they typically just changed to a geminate voiced one.

I definitely recommend prenasalized/plain-voiced allophony myself.

Thank you! I was dithering on this and whether it was realistic.

OK. All right. It’s easier (or at least more intuitive) for me to write these sorts of things on the Mac and then the desktop I have Obsidian on can get the highlights and stuff.

Been a busy few days. Taking a step back from CT (and a lot of things Twin Aster) for a bit, I noticed some things I hadn’t noticed before about certain facets of several conlangs (to wit, Kgáweq’, CT, and Vyâic) that I’d not before noticed, but once I picked up on them, led to some interesting places. (As well, the domain issue Brassica briefly had had prompted me to download the Windows version on my desktop, which led to some further tinkering with the engine to see if I could do what I envisioned with it, and being local had additional benefits with regards to iterating, A/B testing, &c. that I was able to experience.)

Some developments in the recent days:

Beheic (well, really only CT)

• I redid aspects of the romanization scheme multiple times because something just didn’t seem right with it. I’ve briefly spoken about this earlier in the thread, and I’ve, after tossing the football back and forth a couple times, settled on the following:
  • /ŋ/ is now, officially, being rendered with the _⅁ (majuscule ⅁). Because I can.
  • /x/ is now g, like it…used to be for quite a while, actually, before I went to h-with-breve-below. But given that I already have d /θ/, having g /x/ seems harmonious (not to mention internally consistent).
  • /ʕ/ took me a while, but ultimately, I decided on y. Why y? Why, y cannot be used for a vowel sound in the current romanization scheme I’ve been using, and consonantally, its value is often /j/. There is some evidence of changes in greater Beheic where you do get /j/ corresponding to /ʕ/ or the radical or laryngeal consonant left in its wake by sound changes; dialectally, [j] was not exactly a frequent realization of /ʕ/, but it wasn’t unheard of. In several branches of the descendants of CT, original /ʕ/ is reflected as /j/. It is kind of narmy; I considered using j for this purpose but felt it a stretch—j is often /x/ in Spanish, and I saw a South American language whose spelling convention, apparently influenced by that of Spanish, was j /χ/ (I’ve heard that this is also an outcome of historical /x/ in some European Spanish lects?). I figured, OK, laryngeal transitive property confirmed, j /ʕ/ because j /x/ in Spanish > j /χ/ in Spanish-influenced South American language I can’t recall the name of, so j /χ/ > j /ħ/ is reasonable because backing, and it is the larynx, and j /ħ/ > j /ʕ/ is reasonable because voicedness difference, and it is the larynx. I rejected this because it did not feel suitable somehow. I then tried ǵ but it was a pain to type out via hotkeys on Windows. The feted c of Maltese EDIT: Somali also just looked…wrong when applied to CT. I did not want to use ‘ because that would cause issues in typesetting; I did not want to use the actual half-ring characters because TT Marxiana does not support them; I did not want to use â because circumflexes are vowels of opposite roundedness plus high tone, and we already had a and á for the vowel’s two tonal variants so it would be somewhat confusing. I also considered ḥ but rejected it because my association of it with /ħ/ due to my Arabic studies and with /h/ due to stuff I read back in college, and represented in no ways a voiced sound. TL;DR: So that’s y.
  • I briefly toyed with changing ł /ɬ/ to something else; initially I tried z and thence ś, and also j, but none of them felt like they got the point across effectively. Thus, ł remains.
• I found a typo in one of my documents; I had used a k where I ought to’ve used some other letter. But as I looked at it, it was in the section on forming decimal multiples from 30 through 80. The two entries prior to it and the one immediately after all had k in that position, so I was like, OK, this analogized through interference of the related forms. Cool.
• I updated the aegis of some of the measure-words. This was partially due to some gaps I perceived as I was copying all the entries; it gives a little more flavor, plus perhaps I can back-derive a PTO (and thence a PB) proto-etymon that I can then use to fill out the vocabulary in O and other Beheic languages. (Incidentally, that was how CT got some of its personal pronouns, including the infamous 3SG hé—I started with information I had about O and filled the gap in CT that way.)
• A few derivational morphemes now pluralize via reversion of the (base) #VC# form instead of taking a plural in ar. And as a knock-on effect from that, some derivational morphemes whose base form is #CV# now pluralize by reversion as well.

Kgáweq’-Täptäg

• Messed around with Kgáweq’ and its historical phonological development (Brassica came in supremely handy here), allowing me to figure out some of PKT in the doing (and to take what I’d created for PKT proper and see what Kgáweq’ did to it).
• A few phonological tweaks were made to how consonants across morpheme boundaries assimilate or merge or whatever and some affixes were changed.
• The animacy hierarchy was updated.
• I updated some aspects of the verbal template.
  • A few preverbs were altered in scope or meaning.
  • The success affix was better-defined, now having a more robust morphemic catalog for all your highly-nuanced communicative needs.
  • Version was better defined, with examples given.
    1. Subjective version got expanded a bit, to gain a possible volitive interpretation in addition to its prior uses.
    2. Inversion got fleshed out now that the animacy hierarchy led to proper noun class markers and concord.
    3. Oblique version got worked on a bit, largely because I realized I had no idea what I was doing with it in the first place.
    4. Relative version was also worked on, and I had an easier time of it.
  • There are now more tenses, including a specific future-in-the-past (which is its own can of worms, e.g. conditional statements) and a historical past that can also be used as a gnomic.
  • Also, because (I think it was in one of the LCKs where I saw this) some languages, like Basque, can encode information about the listener on the verb, I did something similar with Kgáweq’. One of the unexpected results is that you can distinguish when you’re addressing just a huge crowd or just a relatively large group simply by using the plural affix with or without one of the specific markers. (Somewhat annoyingly for copywriters and designers, where we might address the reader directly—and, as in French, deferentially—on instructions for things like appliances and toilets, Kgáweq’ practice is to use the crowd address, as if they were addressing every user of that product, or every person period, at once.)
• The double-e-with-ogonek will be used in the u-state for when this vowel has different harmonic outcomes in the two major dialect continua.

I’m glad to hear my software helped! The domain should be fixed shortly.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sat Jul 05, 2025 12:10 am The feted c of Maltese also just looked…wrong when applied to CT.

Somali, surely? Maltese uses ⟨għ⟩.

Also, because (I think it was in one of the LCKs where I saw this) some languages, like Basque, can encode information about the listener on the verb, I did something similar with Kgáweq’.

The term is ‘allocutive agreement’.