Zompist Bboard Again

Right-wingers have an oddly specific issue with the word 'rights.' Bad memories of the civil rights movement?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:29 am Right-wingers have an oddly specific issue with the word 'rights.' Bad memories of the civil rights movement?

In the anonymous preacher’s case, he is Asian and the criticism has to do with individualism and lack-of-commitment-to-community/marriage/etc.

Meanwhile, Republican Congressman Madison Cawthorn, in comments complaining about modern culture wanting to "demasculate" men, explicitly told parents: "If you are raising a young man, please raise them to be a monster."

Now, I've long thought that the kind of men many right-wingers want all men to be like are monsters, but I didn't expect them to say it so explicitly.

(Really, folks, even if I would agree with the Right on everything else, and disagree with the Left on everything else, which I don't, the right-wing views on how men and women are supposed to be like would still be enough to keep me from becoming a right-winger.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:29 am Right-wingers have an oddly specific issue with the word 'rights.' Bad memories of the civil rights movement?

I'd say somewhere between "maybe" and "probably".

More broadly, I see a difference in how liberals & conservatives talk about these issues. They seem to use "freedom" and "liberty" as general concepts, but specific "liberties" or "freedoms" not as much. Liberals use "civil liberties", "entitlements", etc. more. There's something about how liberals talk about this that conservatives interpret as "special benefits for people who don't deserve it".

Am I off base on this?

Vardelm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:52 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:29 am Right-wingers have an oddly specific issue with the word 'rights.' Bad memories of the civil rights movement?

I'd say somewhere between "maybe" and "probably".

More broadly, I see a difference in how liberals & conservatives talk about these issues. They seem to use "freedom" and "liberty" as general concepts, but specific "liberties" or "freedoms" not as much. Liberals use "civil liberties", "entitlements", etc. more. There's something about how liberals talk about this that conservatives interpret as "special benefits for people who don't deserve it".

Am I off base on this?

I think that's basically correct. One way I've seen it described is that, to conservatives, rights are negative. You don't have any rights to anything. What you have is freedom from a certain number of things, but no more. Anything more than that is tantamount to communism.

I think there's something to the idea, but it's more than a little specious.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:22 am Meanwhile, Republican Congressman Madison Cawthorn, in comments complaining about modern culture wanting to "demasculate" men, explicitly told parents: "If you are raising a young man, please raise them to be a monster."

Now, I've long thought that the kind of men many right-wingers want all men to be like are monsters, but I didn't expect them to say it so explicitly.

(Really, folks, even if I would agree with the Right on everything else, and disagree with the Left on everything else, which I don't, the right-wing views on how men and women are supposed to be like would still be enough to keep me from becoming a right-winger.)

The far right is constantly trying to come up with classic comebacks to liberal strawmen. As their idea of the liberal mostly exists in their own heads(*), far righters always sound weird as best and very worrying at worst.

(*) To be fair, they do manage to find real life examples of their worst fears, usually on Twitter. But assuming the views of obscure Twitter radical leftists is any way representative is a dishonest assumption.

Is there a communitarian (community centered) right in Western countries anymore? You have the “Asian values” crowd, but that’s an East Asian/Sinosphere thing

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:52 am I think that's basically correct. One way I've seen it described is that, to conservatives, rights are negative. You don't have any rights to anything. What you have is freedom from a certain number of things, but no more. Anything more than that is tantamount to communism.

I think there's something to the idea, but it's more than a little specious.

That seems like a good way to put it. I would ask them, though, do we not have the unalienable rights of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"?

the Left will never understand the Right.

What else is there to say?

Vardelm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:19 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:52 am I think that's basically correct. One way I've seen it described is that, to conservatives, rights are negative. You don't have any rights to anything. What you have is freedom from a certain number of things, but no more. Anything more than that is tantamount to communism.

I think there's something to the idea, but it's more than a little specious.

That seems like a good way to put it. I would ask them, though, do we not have the unalienable rights of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"?

Well you said, "I would ask them", so as a conservative, I'll answer you ....

Yes, we do.

Note that these words were written by Thomas Jefferson, more than 200 years ago, and that the society we had in the late 1700s wasnt anything like what we have today. I see this as a dead-end argument, really. I doubt you can convince me, or any average conservative, to make a connection from the words in the Declaration of Independence and the platform of the contemporary US Democratic party, or any other left-wing organization, for that matter.

.....

In my experience, conservatives have a much better grasp on leftists' thought processes than leftists do on ours. So many leftists seem to, at best, view conservatives as no more than miseducated leftists, as if our interests are the same as yours but we just can't see it ............and at worst, as an evil group with no legitimate interests, and wholly undeserving of compassion, let alone debate. Read upthread if you don't see what I mean, and it's certainly not just confined to this community. I've never seen this sort of thing from the Right.

Also there are conservative minorities esp immigrants for whom race may not be the primary reason they reject liberal beliefs

Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 amSo many leftists seem to, at best, view conservatives as no more than miseducated leftists, as if our interests are the same as yours but we just can't see it ............and at worst, as an evil group with no legitimate interests, and wholly undeserving of compassion, let alone debate. Read upthread if you don't see what I mean, and it's certainly not just confined to this community. I've never seen this sort of thing from the Right.

Never? Seriously? I don't see how anyone can claim that unless it's being undergirded by some sort of No True Scotsman fallacy. Libertarians are the kings of the "you'd believe exactly what I do if you were only smart enough and educated yourself" stance and finding right-wingers who demonise and dehumanise liberals is easier than finding COVID carriers at a motorcycle rally.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am the Left will never understand the Right.

What else is there to say?

Vardelm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:19 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:52 am I think that's basically correct. One way I've seen it described is that, to conservatives, rights are negative. You don't have any rights to anything. What you have is freedom from a certain number of things, but no more. Anything more than that is tantamount to communism.

I think there's something to the idea, but it's more than a little specious.

That seems like a good way to put it. I would ask them, though, do we not have the unalienable rights of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"?

Well you said, "I would ask them", so as a conservative, I'll answer you ....

Yes, we do.

Note that these words were written by Thomas Jefferson, more than 200 years ago, and that the society we had in the late 1700s wasnt anything like what we have today. I see this as a dead-end argument, really. I doubt you can convince me, or any average conservative, to make a connection from the words in the Declaration of Independence and the platform of the contemporary US Democratic party, or any other left-wing organization, for that matter.

.....

In my experience, conservatives have a much better grasp on leftists' thought processes than leftists do on ours. So many leftists seem to, at best, view conservatives as no more than miseducated leftists, as if our interests are the same as yours but we just can't see it ............and at worst, as an evil group with no legitimate interests, and wholly undeserving of compassion, let alone debate. Read upthread if you don't see what I mean, and it's certainly not just confined to this community. I've never seen this sort of thing from the Right.

Let me see, this is how I see the right:

The right is basically reactionary in nature.
The right is basically authoritarian in nature, and when it claims to be "libertarian", it is merely for replacing the authority of the state with the authority of the capitalist.
The right is for dividing the public, turning it against itself, and exploiting this division, using false consciousness to accomplish this.
The right is for the interests of heterosexual cisgender white male Christians alone, and feels justified in trampling over the interests of everyone else.
The right is for deceiving the general public, and especially the working class, into believing that their interests are aligned with the rich while actually acting against their actual economic interests.
The right is for no limits being imposed on the rich, while squashing the actual interests of the working class.
And so on...

Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am the Left will never understand the Right.

What else is there to say?

Or perhaps the Left, or at least parts of it, understand the Right better than the Right understands itself, or at least better than the Right is willing to admit to itself.

In my experience, conservatives have a much better grasp on leftists' thought processes than leftists do on ours.

In my experience, conservatives and right-wingers tend to seriously believe, or at least claim to seriously believe, that everyone to their left is a communist. That doesn't strike me as a particularly good "grasp on leftists' thought processes".

So many leftists seem to, at best, view conservatives as no more than miseducated leftists, as if our interests are the same as yours but we just can't see it ............and at worst, as an evil group with no legitimate interests, and wholly undeserving of compassion, let alone debate. Read upthread if you don't see what I mean, and it's certainly not just confined to this community. I've never seen this sort of thing from the Right.

You've never seen this sort of thing from the Right? What Right are you talking about? Frankly, I rarely ever see anything else than this sort of thing from the Right. Ok, can you name a single prominent, well-known contemporary right-wing commentator who, when they talk about leftists, don't describe them basically as "at best, no more than miseducated right-wingers, as if their interests are the same as yours but they just can't see it ............and at worst, as an evil group with no legitimate interests, and wholly undeserving of compassion, let alone debate"?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:52 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:22 am Meanwhile, Republican Congressman Madison Cawthorn, in comments complaining about modern culture wanting to "demasculate" men, explicitly told parents: "If you are raising a young man, please raise them to be a monster."

Now, I've long thought that the kind of men many right-wingers want all men to be like are monsters, but I didn't expect them to say it so explicitly.

(Really, folks, even if I would agree with the Right on everything else, and disagree with the Left on everything else, which I don't, the right-wing views on how men and women are supposed to be like would still be enough to keep me from becoming a right-winger.)

The far right is constantly trying to come up with classic comebacks to liberal strawmen. As their idea of the liberal mostly exists in their own heads(*), far righters always sound weird as best and very worrying at worst.

(*) To be fair, they do manage to find real life examples of their worst fears, usually on Twitter. But assuming the views of obscure Twitter radical leftists is any way representative is a dishonest assumption.

Interesting comments, but to be honest I'm not sure how they relate to the post of mine you were responding to.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:01 pm

Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am In my experience, conservatives have a much better grasp on leftists' thought processes than leftists do on ours.

In my experience, conservatives and right-wingers tend to seriously believe, or at least claim to seriously believe, that everyone to their left is a communist. That doesn't strike me as a particularly good "grasp on leftists' thought processes".

It seriously seems to me that much of the right's grasp on reality is kind of thin, with how obsessed they are with conspiracy theories, no matter how bizarre, and with how they seem to have a weak grasp on politics beyond what goes around in their hivemind (e.g. with how, as you mentioned, they like to throw around "Communist" loosely while sincerely believing it), and so on.

About the use of "Communist", what I like is rightists' use of "socialist" to refer to people who are slightly left-of-center, while simultaneously not having the least clue of what socialism is really about (with socialists being just some kind of evil bogeyman they scare their children with).

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:04 pm Interesting comments, but to be honest I'm not sure how they relate to the post of mine you were responding to.

Oh, sorry I think that Cawthorne guy has gotten himself very, very worked up about imaginary threats to his masculinity -- so worked up, in fact, that he's beginning to sound like a crazy person.
(Alternatively, he knows full well that there are no such threats and it's a publicity stunt. Very likely too.)

It seriously seems to me that much of the right's grasp on reality is kind of thin, with how obsessed they are with conspiracy theories, no matter how bizarre, and with how they seem to have a weak grasp on politics beyond what goes around in their hivemind (e.g. with how, as you mentioned, they like to throw around "Communist" loosely while sincerely believing it), and so on.

I don't know about that. Far-righters, like that Cawthorne fellow are bizarre and spectacular. Is he representative of most conservatives though? I don't think so.

I probably wouldn't agree on much with, say, Meghan McCain, but I don't know, she seems reasonable enough.
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me many conservative voters were aware of Trump's faults and just went along with what they thought was a lesser evil.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:40 pm About the use of "Communist", what I like is rightists' use of "socialist" to refer to people who are slightly left-of-center, while simultaneously not having the least clue of what socialism is really about (with socialists being just some kind of evil bogeyman they scare their children with).

Take the following chart, or any similar chart where one axis is economic right/capitalism vs left/socialism/communism and the other axis is authoritarianism/totalitarianism vs. libertarianism/anarchism.




What I find is many conservatives seem to collapse the political area (at least as defined in these charts) into a single axis. They conflate liberal economic policy with totalitarian government, while conservative economic policy is equated with freedom. If you look at it in that manner, some of their views make more sense (but not in the sense of being "good policy").

Vardelm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:05 pm What I find is many conservatives seem to collapse the political area (at least as defined in these charts) into a single axis. They conflate liberal economic policy with totalitarian government, while conservative economic policy is equated with freedom. If you look at it in that manner, some of their views make more sense (but not in the sense of being "good policy").

Thing is, they often conflate people who are anything but socialist with the evil bogeyman of "Communist!", as if anything which is not on the right is equivalent to big-C Communism.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:15 pm Thing is, they often conflate people who are anything but socialist with the evil bogeyman of "Communist!", as if anything which is not on the right is equivalent to big-C Communism.

Yes. The collapse of 2 axes into 1 mostly explains why. After that, it's just a matter of degree.

Well, you've all been busy.

The idea that "we understand the other side's mind but they don't understand ours" seems pretty universal. Wolf Blitzer said it about the left. I think most people believe they perfectly understand what's going on in the minds of their opponents, but there's no one to tell them they're wrong. A useful exercise for me is to ask myself the following question about someone who disagrees with me about something important: "What is the most we can agree on and still differ on this one topic? How can this person agree with me on every single major principle and still not come to the same conclusionas me?" It really helps me consider how like-minded it's possible to be and still disagree on tax law or whatever, and can help narrow in on more fundamental differences where they exist, whichout mythologizing the other side.

As for the comment that preaching that good education can only lead to leftist conclusions, that is a classic cliche of the left. It used to be a saying that you can place someone on a left-right spectrum by asking them if they believe their opponents to be stupid or evil. But I don't think that's the case anymore. The right has been joined by energetic intellectual or pseudo-intellectual movements and conspiracy theories that revolve around "research" and "logic." Often they are philosophy enthusiasts who read Jordan Peterson, or Red Pillers who think no one else is thinking clearly about the mechanics of society. But they certainly think others on the left would agree with them if they read and studied more.

One last thing: I actually agree with Pab about the pointlessness of quoting the Declaration of Independence to try and convince anyone of your point. We are believe we're doing the right thing, so what's it supposed to accomplish when you quote something that can be interpreted so many ways?

EDIT: A feeble attempt to change the subject

The news is depressing as always. The Jan 6 committee is trying to force Bannen to testify and he's being petulent about it. Biden has agreed to Obama the planned expansion of the social safety net by removing college subsidies.