Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:40 pm**

Overall Catalan appears to me to be closer to an "average" western Romance than either French or Castilian, both of which have gone in their own ways. It just happens that French has gone really far in its own way.

Posted: **Fri Aug 09, 2024 9:50 am**

Thank you for your replies, everyone. I had wondered because I had heard a few snippets of Catalan-born soccer coach Pep Guardiola speaking in English, and his accent sounded generally closer to a French accent than to a Spanish accent to me.

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:40 am**

A wonderfully ANADEW moment: I was working out the numbers for my language, and noticed that regular sound change would mean that tow ‘five’ and toy ‘six’ differ by only a single consonant. Then I browsed zompist’s numbers list, and discovered that Ewe has not one but two pairs of numbers differing by a single phoneme:

eve ‘two’ vs ene ‘four’
adé ‘six’ vs adré ‘seven’

In fact, we can almost increase this to three pairs: zompist’s list also has the astonishingly close enyí ‘eight’ vs enyíè ‘nine’. Alas, none of the other sources confirm this: they all give ‘nine’ as some form of enyiɖe or asieke. But as if to compensate, they all give some variation of ɛtɔ ‘three’ vs atɔ̃́ ‘five’.

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:41 am**

Well, if we're looking for single pairs, we can add French deux '2' and dix '10' before vowels.

But if we look beyond '10', we've got, in lects with an accent shift', English '13' and '30' etc., and consequently in noisy environments one often hears three oh for '30'.

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:46 am**

Unrelated: Are the phones of whispered words substantially phonetically different from their counterparts in non-whispered words? I mean, aside from the different volume?

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2024 10:03 am**

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:41 am Well, if we're looking for single pairs, we can add French deux '2' and dix '10' before vowels.

Aargh, and I’m actually learning French right now… I feel a bit silly for missing this.

But if we look beyond '10', we've got, in lects with an accent shift', English '13' and '30' etc., and consequently in noisy environments one often hears three oh for '30'.

In French there’s also cinq and cent. But I’m inclined to focus on numbers 1–10.

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2024 1:54 pm**

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:46 am Unrelated: Are the phones of whispered words substantially phonetically different from their counterparts in non-whispered words? I mean, aside from the different volume?

Yes, there is a difference in phonation. Here is a schematic representation of the articulatory difference.

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2024 2:26 pm**

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:41 am Well, if we're looking for single pairs, we can add French deux '2' and dix '10' before vowels.

But if we look beyond '10', we've got, in lects with an accent shift', English '13' and '30' etc., and consequently in noisy environments one often hears three oh for '30'.

In my dialect thirty and thirteen can sound nearly identical if you don't geminate the /t/ in thirteen because final /n/ is commonly elided in many environments, being preserved only as nasalization of the final vowel (which can be weak).

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:43 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:40 am A wonderfully ANADEW moment: I was working out the numbers for my language, and noticed that regular sound change would mean that tow ‘five’ and toy ‘six’ differ by only a single consonant. Then I browsed zompist’s numbers list, and discovered that Ewe has not one but two pairs of numbers differing by a single phoneme:

eve ‘two’ vs ene ‘four’

adé ‘six’ vs adré ‘seven’

In fact, we can almost increase this to three pairs: zompist’s list also has the astonishingly close enyí ‘eight’ vs enyíè ‘nine’. Alas, none of the other sources confirm this: they all give ‘nine’ as some form of enyiɖe or asieke. But as if to compensate, they all give some variation of ɛtɔ ‘three’ vs atɔ̃́ ‘five’.

I once got the wrong dish in a restaurant because the waitress, who had asked me for the number of the dish I ordered, had misheard einhundertzwanzig '120' as einundzwanzig '21'.

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:31 pm**

Who rounds or doesn't round the vowel in gonna? In the dialect here it is [ˈɡ̥ʌ̃ɾ̃ə(ː)] or even just [ɡ̥ʌ̃ː], but I have heard people on the radio with pronunciations with rounded (and closer) vowels such as [ˈɡ̥õ̞ɾ̃ə(ː)].

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2024 4:05 am**

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 1:54 pm
Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:46 am Unrelated: Are the phones of whispered words substantially phonetically different from their counterparts in non-whispered words? I mean, aside from the different volume?
Yes, there is a difference in phonation. Here is a schematic representation of the articulatory difference.

Thank you! So voiceless and voiced sounds merge in whispered or murmured speech?

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2024 5:12 am**

Ah, sorry. Murmured is an alternative term for breathy voice, I think. But you are correct, primary cues for a voicing contrast are neutralized in whispery voice. Secondary cues usually help, such as duration of the preceding vowel in English or presence/absence of a noisy release period in German.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2024 7:05 am**

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:41 amWell, if we're looking for single pairs, we can add French deux '2' and dix '10' before vowels.

Slavic languages famously have v/s alteration for their words for 9 and 10: devet/deset, dziewięć/dziesięć etc.

JAL

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:45 am**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:31 pm Who rounds or doesn't round the vowel in gonna? In the dialect here it is [ˈɡ̥ʌ̃ɾ̃ə(ː)] or even just [ɡ̥ʌ̃ː], but I have heard people on the radio with pronunciations with rounded (and closer) vowels such as [ˈɡ̥õ̞ɾ̃ə(ː)].

In Australia it's [ɔ] LOT. In the UK it seems to be [ʌ] STRUT (at least in the south of England; do northerners have [ʊ]?).

I assume the vowel you're hearing on the radio is THOUGHT?

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:14 pm**

vlad wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:45 am
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:31 pm Who rounds or doesn't round the vowel in gonna? In the dialect here it is [ˈɡ̥ʌ̃ɾ̃ə(ː)] or even just [ɡ̥ʌ̃ː], but I have heard people on the radio with pronunciations with rounded (and closer) vowels such as [ˈɡ̥õ̞ɾ̃ə(ː)].
In Australia it's [ɔ] LOT. In the UK it seems to be [ʌ] STRUT (at least in the south of England; do northerners have [ʊ]?).

I assume the vowel you're hearing on the radio is THOUGHT?

It definitely is not THOUGHT (remember that while [o] is THOUGHT in much of AusE, it is not THOUGHT in NAE), because THOUGHT in NAE (this is American radio, remember) is a low vowel and is often unrounded (i.e. [ɒ] or [ɑ]), while this is a much closer, and rounder vowel.

Posted: **Tue Aug 13, 2024 12:41 pm**

vlad wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:45 am
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:31 pm Who rounds or doesn't round the vowel in gonna? In the dialect here it is [ˈɡ̥ʌ̃ɾ̃ə(ː)] or even just [ɡ̥ʌ̃ː], but I have heard people on the radio with pronunciations with rounded (and closer) vowels such as [ˈɡ̥õ̞ɾ̃ə(ː)].
In Australia it's [ɔ] LOT. In the UK it seems to be [ʌ] STRUT (at least in the south of England; do northerners have [ʊ]?).

I assume the vowel you're hearing on the radio is THOUGHT?

For me it is normally schwa. If I used a full vowel it would be LOT, but I think that's just because of the spelling.

Posted: **Tue Aug 13, 2024 5:06 pm**

What implications do spoonerisms have for cognitive theories of language?

Posted: **Tue Aug 13, 2024 5:10 pm**

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 12:41 pm
vlad wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:45 am
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:31 pm Who rounds or doesn't round the vowel in gonna? In the dialect here it is [ˈɡ̥ʌ̃ɾ̃ə(ː)] or even just [ɡ̥ʌ̃ː], but I have heard people on the radio with pronunciations with rounded (and closer) vowels such as [ˈɡ̥õ̞ɾ̃ə(ː)].
In Australia it's [ɔ] LOT. In the UK it seems to be [ʌ] STRUT (at least in the south of England; do northerners have [ʊ]?).

I assume the vowel you're hearing on the radio is THOUGHT?
For me it is normally schwa. If I used a full vowel it would be LOT, but I think that's just because of the spelling.

I have a long nasal schwa in I'm going to when I realize it as [ˈãẽ̯mə̃ː] but not when I realize it as [ˈãẽ̯mˌɡʌ̃ː].

Posted: **Tue Aug 13, 2024 5:37 pm**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 5:10 pm I have a long nasal schwa in I'm going to when I realize it as [ˈãẽ̯mə̃ː] but not when I realize it as [ˈãẽ̯mˌɡʌ̃ː].

I'd say [ãjŋ gʌ̃ʌ]. The trailoff of nasalization might be heard as a consonant, maybe.

I don't recall hearing any [o] sounds, but rather than an innovation, it might be retaining the original vowel of "going".

Posted: **Wed Aug 14, 2024 12:02 am**

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 5:06 pm What implications do spoonerisms have for cognitive theories of language?

The implication that we all make mistakes? *shrugs*

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