Zompist Bboard Again

alice wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 2:26 pmIf an "employee" is one who is employed, then is one who is seen a "seeee"?

My general sense is that the -ee suffix mainly occurs with verbs borrowed from French or Latin rather than native ones. It derives etymologically from the French past participle -é(e) after all. At the very least, "seeee" sounds thoroughly unidiomatic to me.

With winter getting nearer in my hemisphere, I wanted to write a post asking you all if you could imagine that an organized, structured, rules-bound version of a snowball fight could theoretically become a serious team sport. But when I did some basic research in preparation for that post, I learned that that's already a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukigassen

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 5:23 pm My general sense is that the -ee suffix mainly occurs with verbs borrowed from French or Latin rather than native ones.

That's true, though Merriam-Webster offers a few exceptions: firee, giftee, shootee.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 7:56 pm

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 5:23 pm My general sense is that the -ee suffix mainly occurs with verbs borrowed from French or Latin rather than native ones.

That's true, though Merriam-Webster offers a few exceptions: firee, giftee, shootee.

Would a "giftee" be the thing given, or its recipient? Strictly speaking, it should be the former.

alice wrote: ↑Fri Sep 19, 2025 3:12 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 7:56 pm

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 5:23 pm My general sense is that the -ee suffix mainly occurs with verbs borrowed from French or Latin rather than native ones.

That's true, though Merriam-Webster offers a few exceptions: firee, giftee, shootee.

Would a "giftee" be the thing given, or its recipient? Strictly speaking, it should be the former.

It's the recipient. It's not unusual for -ee to mark a dative object: cf. addressee, dedicatee, franchisee, grantee, lessee

There's also a very small class of nouns where the person is the one doing the action: returnee, signee, standee, devotee.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Sep 19, 2025 4:36 pm

alice wrote: ↑Fri Sep 19, 2025 3:12 pm Would a "giftee" be the thing given, or its recipient? Strictly speaking, it should be the former.

It's the recipient. It's not unusual for -ee to mark a dative object: cf. addressee, dedicatee, franchisee, grantee, lessee

There's also a very small class of nouns where the person is the one doing the action: returnee, signee, standee, devotee.

Of course. Still, it's depressing to see how far standards have slipped recently; in my time the suffix always clearly and unambiguously indicated the case, young people don't know proper grammar, what do they teach them in school nowadays, bring back compulsory Latin, and so on

In other news, our local garden centre now has Christmas cards on sale, and the festive diorama has already been erected. How long will it be before the retail festive season starts overlapping the one before?

alice wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:17 pm In other news, our local garden centre now has Christmas cards on sale, and the festive diorama has already been erected. How long will it be before the retail festive season starts overlapping the one before?

Here in the US the Christmas retail holiday season is supposed to wait until after Halloween... and don't you have Halloween in Scotland?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:34 pm

alice wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:17 pm In other news, our local garden centre now has Christmas cards on sale, and the festive diorama has already been erected. How long will it be before the retail festive season starts overlapping the one before?

Here in the US the Christmas retail holiday season is supposed to wait until after Halloween... and don't you have Halloween in Scotland?

Oh yes indeed. I’ve seen both Christmas and Halloween sales on here!

(Incidentally, I’m a bit surprised at how much bigger of a thing Halloween is here compared to Australia. We don’t see nearly so many pumpkins etc. on sale there.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:11 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:34 pm

alice wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:17 pm In other news, our local garden centre now has Christmas cards on sale, and the festive diorama has already been erected. How long will it be before the retail festive season starts overlapping the one before?

Here in the US the Christmas retail holiday season is supposed to wait until after Halloween... and don't you have Halloween in Scotland?

Oh yes indeed. I’ve seen both Christmas and Halloween sales on here!

(Incidentally, I’m a bit surprised at how much bigger of a thing Halloween is here compared to Australia. We don’t see nearly so many pumpkins etc. on sale there.)

Remember that Irish, Scottish, and Scots-Irish people originally imported Halloween to the US, and indeed the word Halloween has its origins in Scots, so it is not surprising that Halloween would be big in Scotland.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:11 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:34 pm

alice wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:17 pm In other news, our local garden centre now has Christmas cards on sale, and the festive diorama has already been erected. How long will it be before the retail festive season starts overlapping the one before?

Here in the US the Christmas retail holiday season is supposed to wait until after Halloween... and don't you have Halloween in Scotland?

Oh yes indeed. I’ve seen both Christmas and Halloween sales on here!

Back when I was a kid, at least in the US, the Christmas shopping season didn't officially start until after Thanksgiving! You of course would see advertisements for Black Friday, but that was more for Black Friday and not the Christmas shopping season. I was already surprised when I went back a few years ago in August to see the craft stores already had Christmas décor for sale... that said, I find that the overlapping seasons depend on the store: partly for the benefit of people who make their own crafts for the season, I think arts and crafts stores will put their stuff out quite far in advance and you thus get the overlapping holidays.

Each country also has quite a different cadence of holidays as well, I notice, at least when it comes to the retail season. In the Netherlands, for example, Sinterklaas (5/6 December) is very important and the appropriate things will go on sale far in advance (especially kruidnoten), while Christmas seems less important. Here in the Grand Duchy, there isn't a major holiday before Christmas (Toussaint/All Saints' Day is special), so the Christmas shopping season starts a bit early, but normally mid-November with the opening of the Christmas markets.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:11 pm (Incidentally, I’m a bit surprised at how much bigger of a thing Halloween is here compared to Australia. We don’t see nearly so many pumpkins etc. on sale there.)

Out of curiosity, are pumpkins a thing in (your part of) Australia during Australian fall?

alice wrote: ↑Sat Sep 20, 2025 2:19 pm Still, it's depressing to see how far standards have slipped recently; in my time the suffix always clearly and unambiguously indicated the case, young people don't know proper grammar, what do they teach them in school nowadays, bring back compulsory Latin, and so on

This reminds me of when my grandfather asked my parents why my brother and I weren't learning Latin, a "useful language".

doctor shark wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 4:08 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:11 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:34 pm

Here in the US the Christmas retail holiday season is supposed to wait until after Halloween... and don't you have Halloween in Scotland?

Oh yes indeed. I’ve seen both Christmas and Halloween sales on here!

Back when I was a kid, at least in the US, the Christmas shopping season didn't officially start until after Thanksgiving! You of course would see advertisements for Black Friday, but that was more for Black Friday and not the Christmas shopping season. I was already surprised when I went back a few years ago in August to see the craft stores already had Christmas décor for sale... that said, I find that the overlapping seasons depend on the store: partly for the benefit of people who make their own crafts for the season, I think arts and crafts stores will put their stuff out quite far in advance and you thus get the overlapping holidays.

I thankfully haven't seen any Christmas stuff here in Wisconsin yet, but I haven't gone to any garden or craft stores lately. It's all been Halloween stuff so far.

doctor shark wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 4:08 pm Each country also has quite a different cadence of holidays as well, I notice, at least when it comes to the retail season. In the Netherlands, for example, Sinterklaas (5/6 December) is very important and the appropriate things will go on sale far in advance (especially kruidnoten), while Christmas seems less important. Here in the Grand Duchy, there isn't a major holiday before Christmas (Toussaint/All Saints' Day is special), so the Christmas shopping season starts a bit early, but normally mid-November with the opening of the Christmas markets.

St. Nick's Day is unusually popular with kids here in Wisconsin by American standards.

doctor shark wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 4:08 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:11 pm (Incidentally, I’m a bit surprised at how much bigger of a thing Halloween is here compared to Australia. We don’t see nearly so many pumpkins etc. on sale there.)

Out of curiosity, are pumpkins a thing in (your part of) Australia during Australian fall?

Lol.

doctor shark wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 4:08 pm

alice wrote: ↑Sat Sep 20, 2025 2:19 pm Still, it's depressing to see how far standards have slipped recently; in my time the suffix always clearly and unambiguously indicated the case, young people don't know proper grammar, what do they teach them in school nowadays, bring back compulsory Latin, and so on

This reminds me of when my grandfather asked my parents why my brother and I weren't learning Latin, a "useful language".

My high school offered Latin, but it never was a big thing, whereas German is a popular choice here in Wisconsin.

I think over here, businesses-pushing-Christmas-on-a-reluctant-public has started in late September for a fairly long time, so if that's happening this year, too, as bad as it may be, at least it doesn't mean that things are getting even worse in that regard.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 4:21 pm St. Nick's Day is unusually popular with kids here in Wisconsin by American standards.

German influence?

My high school offered Latin, but it never was a big thing, whereas German is a popular choice here in Wisconsin.

I did pick Latin at the start of 7th grade.

You see, we had all started English classes at the start of 5th grade. At the start of 7th grade, we had to choose between French and Latin as the next additional language. Problem is, based on what I thought I knew at the time about French attitudes towards language-related issues, I had the impression that the French mainly wanted me to learn French so that they wouldn't have to learn English. Since, at that point, I had already spent two years putting a lot of time and effort into trying to learn English, I found that rather unfair of the French. So I made a point of picking Latin.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 7:10 pm I think over here, businesses-pushing-Christmas-on-a-reluctant-public has started in late September for a fairly long time, so if that's happening this year, too, as bad as it may be, at least it doesn't mean that things are getting even worse in that regard.

I hope that doesn't spread over here. There is a radio station that recently got sold to a Christian radio network here in Milwaukee, 93.3, and they decided to start playing Christmas music until they are officially part of said Christian radio network, though...

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 7:10 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 4:21 pm St. Nick's Day is unusually popular with kids here in Wisconsin by American standards.

German influence?

Likely.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 7:10 pm

My high school offered Latin, but it never was a big thing, whereas German is a popular choice here in Wisconsin.

I did pick Latin at the start of 7th grade.

You see, we had all started English classes at the start of 5th grade. At the start of 7th grade, we had to choose between French and Latin as the next additional language. Problem is, based on what I thought I knew at the time about French attitudes towards language-related issues, I had the impression that the French mainly wanted me to learn French so that they wouldn't have to learn English. Since, at that point, I had already spent two years putting a lot of time and effort into trying to learn English, I found that rather unfair of the French. So I made a point of picking Latin.

We normally only learn one foreign language over here unless you pick Latin as a language. For the record, I picked Japanese as my foreign language, and never quite learned it that well for some reason (and of course, after the decided that the Japanese weren't going to take over the world after all, they started phasing it out as I got towards the end of high school...). I only took one semester of German in college, aber mein Deutsch ist besser als mein Japanisch, obwohl mein Deutsch noch nicht so gut ist.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 7:10 pm You see, we had all started English classes at the start of 5th grade. At the start of 7th grade, we had to choose between French and Latin as the next additional language. Problem is, based on what I thought I knew at the time about French attitudes towards language-related issues, I had the impression that the French mainly wanted me to learn French so that they wouldn't have to learn English. Since, at that point, I had already spent two years putting a lot of time and effort into trying to learn English, I found that rather unfair of the French. So I made a point of picking Latin.

Heh. Your impression may not have been actually wrong, but maybe one or two generations out of date

Here, it's usual to pick two foreign languages. The more prestigious choice is to pick German as the first foreign language, because it's (supposedly) more difficult. (I didn't; English just seemed more useful. I did take German as a second language). Then you can pick Latin; then Greek. After that you can pick a third language, if you want to.

Generally, I think the French system isn't very good at teaching languages. I did well enough in German class, but I really can't speak German (though I can understand it, sort of.) and my experience isn't unusual. Most people can get by in English, but definitely not as well as the Germans do.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 7:34 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 7:10 pm

My high school offered Latin, but it never was a big thing, whereas German is a popular choice here in Wisconsin.

I did pick Latin at the start of 7th grade.

You see, we had all started English classes at the start of 5th grade. At the start of 7th grade, we had to choose between French and Latin as the next additional language. Problem is, based on what I thought I knew at the time about French attitudes towards language-related issues, I had the impression that the French mainly wanted me to learn French so that they wouldn't have to learn English. Since, at that point, I had already spent two years putting a lot of time and effort into trying to learn English, I found that rather unfair of the French. So I made a point of picking Latin.

We normally only learn one foreign language over here unless you pick Latin as a language. For the record, I picked Japanese as my foreign language, and never quite learned it that well for some reason (and of course, after the decided that the Japanese weren't going to take over the world after all, they started phasing it out as I got towards the end of high school...). I only took one semester of German in college, aber mein Deutsch ist besser als mein Japanisch, obwohl mein Deutsch noch nicht so gut ist.

Over here, the requirement is one modern foreign language from year 3 until you start studying for GCSEs. Latin is an option for GCSEs, but most schools don't offer it. Some particularly posh private schools will run mandatory Latin classes before GCSE, so they have the time to study the hard spec¹ and so it is possible to run an A Level without an absurd amount of work²³.

The UK school system is of course notoriously bad at teaching languages, and almost noöne who did a GCSE in a language can speak it, or even understand it, even if they did well in it⁴, and very few people take an A Level in one⁵.

¹ The different specifications for the subject are supposed to be the same, but the difference between the two exam boards that offer Latin is ridiculously big
² Because only the harder exam board runs an A Level, and they, and all the teaching materials, assume you studied their spec for GCSE, the easier GCSE–A Level gap is a pain to go through
³ Yes, this is a rant
⁴ The marking and teaching is such thst you can fill a vocab of a couple of hundred words into taught sentence structures and do extremely well in speaking & writing, after which vocab and structures can be quickly forgotten, and the reading/listing questions are generally doable only knowing a subset of the tested vocab
⁵ We periodically get someone ringing the alarm about the lack of German A Level students, in which the never-elsewhere seen⁶⁷ strong UK-Germany relationship is proclaimed to be soon to be dead
⁶ Apart from bilateral summits
⁷ I may be slightly exaggerating

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:11 am ⁵ We periodically get someone ringing the alarm about the lack of German A Level students, in which the never-elsewhere seen⁶⁷ strong UK-Germany relationship is proclaimed to be soon to be dead
⁶ Apart from bilateral summits
⁷ I may be slightly exaggerating

I am somehow reminded of The Germans...

Not sure I really see the point of learning German, if you start out with English and could spend the same time learning Chinese, Spanish, French, or Arabic. I mean, you could probably drive from one end of the German-speaking part of the world to the other in one day, if you start driving early in the morning, drive until late at night, don't take breaks, and get unusually lucky about traffic and other potential delays.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:21 am Not sure I really see the point of learning German, if you start out with English and could spend the same time learning Chinese, Spanish, French, or Arabic. I mean, you could probably drive from one end of the German-speaking part of the world to the other in one day, if you start driving early in the morning, drive until late at night, don't take breaks, and get unusually lucky about traffic and other potential delays.

German is popular in Wisconsin for obvious reasons distinct from its pure practicality. In my case, I used to frequent an IRC channel with quite a few Germans from Berlin in it -- of course, they had the habit of saying things like ick and Tach, stuff which they don't teach you in a college intro/refresher German course...

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:03 am Generally, I think the French system isn't very good at teaching languages. I did well enough in German class, but I really can't speak German (though I can understand it, sort of.) and my experience isn't unusual. Most people can get by in English, but definitely not as well as the Germans do.

I found that to be the case when I taught in France over a decade ago, and the teaching methods didn't help the situation. (Lots of rote memorization was involved, and more than a few of the teachers with whom I worked just only seemed interested in a paycheck.) On the other hand, the US system (at least where I lived/when I went to school) wasn't much better...