Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 10:51 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 10:41 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 9:54 am
You know, I have noticed most of the European countries that pick up English well already speak a Germanic language.

I hadn't noticed that myself, but now that you mention it, it does make sense.

There are exceptions, such as Finland, which is known today for its good English despite being mostly non-Germanic-speaking (aside from its Swedish-speaking minority). Of course, this was not always this way, as is exemplified by the word tankero...

There's also South Asia, where fluency in English as an additional language seems to be fairly common, despite the fact that very few people there are L1 speakers of a Germanic language. Then again, Starbeam was specifically talking about Europe.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 10:55 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 10:51 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 10:41 am

I hadn't noticed that myself, but now that you mention it, it does make sense.

There are exceptions, such as Finland, which is known today for its good English despite being mostly non-Germanic-speaking (aside from its Swedish-speaking minority). Of course, this was not always this way, as is exemplified by the word tankero...

There's also South Asia, where fluency in English as an additional language seems to be fairly common, despite the fact that very few people there are L1 speakers of a Germanic language. Then again, Starbeam was specifically talking about Europe.

Yes indeed. I'm also going to disqualify former English colonies for obvious reasons.

IIRC many Finns do know Swedish even if they're not Fenno-Swedes. I think that would give them a leg up in learning English.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:29 am IIRC many Finns do know Swedish even if they're not Fenno-Swedes. I think that would give them a leg up in learning English.

One thing to note, though is non-Finland-Swedish Finnish people's knowledge of Swedish is famously bad overall. A good example of this is following a statement in Finnish with "och samma på svenska" instead of actually bothering to translate it to Swedish. I have seen examples of cases where a "translation" of a sign in Finnish into Swedish actually is not a translation of the Finnish into Swedish at all, but those who created the sign never bothered to check what the Swedish actually meant.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:43 am
One thing to note, though is non-Finland-Swedish Finnish people's knowledge of Swedish is famously bad overall. A good example of this is following a statement in Finnish with "och samma på svenska" instead of actually bothering to translate it to Swedish. I have seen examples of cases where a "translation" of a sign in Finnish into Swedish actually is not a translation of the Finnish into Swedish at all, but those who created the sign never bothered to check what the Swedish actually meant.

Well, I don't think that people have a particular obligation to learn the language of a fairly small part of their country's population, even if it's also the language of one of their neighboring countries.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:50 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:43 am
One thing to note, though is non-Finland-Swedish Finnish people's knowledge of Swedish is famously bad overall. A good example of this is following a statement in Finnish with "och samma på svenska" instead of actually bothering to translate it to Swedish. I have seen examples of cases where a "translation" of a sign in Finnish into Swedish actually is not a translation of the Finnish into Swedish at all, but those who created the sign never bothered to check what the Swedish actually meant.

Well, I don't think that people have a particular obligation to learn the language of a fairly small part of their country's population, even if it's also the language of one of their neighboring countries.

I'm just pointing out that, from everything I have seen, the average Finnish person probably has better English than Swedish, despite the (much-hated) existence of "Mandatory Swedish"...

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:50 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:43 am
One thing to note, though is non-Finland-Swedish Finnish people's knowledge of Swedish is famously bad overall. A good example of this is following a statement in Finnish with "och samma på svenska" instead of actually bothering to translate it to Swedish. I have seen examples of cases where a "translation" of a sign in Finnish into Swedish actually is not a translation of the Finnish into Swedish at all, but those who created the sign never bothered to check what the Swedish actually meant.

Well, I don't think that people have a particular obligation to learn the language of a fairly small part of their country's population, even if it's also the language of one of their neighboring countries.

Swedish, however, is an official language of Finland, which makes the situation a bit more "interesting", even though it's the language natively of about 6% of the population. (Maybe the same with German in Belgium: it's official, but not widely spoken.)

What I've found, based on my biased experience, is that it's probably not so much due to the origin of the language of that country, but two factors:

• Availability of foreign media in the native language, as smaller countries with less spoken languages will have less native media in that language
• Generation, where younger generations tend to be more proficient in English, particularly if the country was behind the Iron Curtain

One example is Slovenia: I've found many younger Slovenians (i.e. roughly my age or younger) speak very good English, and Slovene is a Slavic language. Where English is quite good in older generations is probably more when the language is more related: older Swedes and Dutch people, in my experience, do speak very good English, whereas the high proficiency in English in Slovenians, Czechs, Slovakians, Croatians, Hungarians, and the Portuguese (for example) is more evident in the younger generations. These are all relatively small countries, so native language media is a bit more limited. Germans of younger ages also speak very good English, but my experience is that it's a bit shakier with older generations (and especially those from the former GDR).

France, however, is the case where there's a lot of media available in French plus the language education there is traditionally quite bad, so a lot of people there don't see a need to learn the language. (At least this was the case when I worked there 14 years ago... wait, how has it been that long ago already?)

doctor shark wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 1:23 pm Germans of younger ages also speak very good English, but my experience is that it's a bit shakier with older generations (and especially those from the former GDR).

I have read that Angela Merkel of all people, who is from the GDR, is not truly fluent in English.

doctor shark wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 1:23 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:50 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:43 am
One thing to note, though is non-Finland-Swedish Finnish people's knowledge of Swedish is famously bad overall. A good example of this is following a statement in Finnish with "och samma på svenska" instead of actually bothering to translate it to Swedish. I have seen examples of cases where a "translation" of a sign in Finnish into Swedish actually is not a translation of the Finnish into Swedish at all, but those who created the sign never bothered to check what the Swedish actually meant.

Well, I don't think that people have a particular obligation to learn the language of a fairly small part of their country's population, even if it's also the language of one of their neighboring countries.

Swedish, however, is an official language of Finland, which makes the situation a bit more "interesting", even though it's the language natively of about 6% of the population. (Maybe the same with German in Belgium: it's official, but not widely spoken.)

This is made more "interesting" by the fact that Swedish was once spoken by a larger population within Finland, but over the course of the 20th and 21st centuries has been gradually replaced by Finnish, and that Swedish is a legacy of colonization by Sweden, of which Finland was once part.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:43 amI have seen examples of cases where a "translation" of a sign in Finnish into Swedish actually is not a translation of the Finnish into Swedish at all, but those who created the sign never bothered to check what the Swedish actually meant.

Was it anything like this?

alice wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 2:15 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 11:43 amI have seen examples of cases where a "translation" of a sign in Finnish into Swedish actually is not a translation of the Finnish into Swedish at all, but those who created the sign never bothered to check what the Swedish actually meant.

Was it anything like this?

Precisely.

From this, which includes your example above, I gather that they have trouble finding Welsh-speakers in Swansea...

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 9:43 am I’m having a bit of a midlife crisis.

In a few weeks, should I still be alive, I will turn 34. I myself do not anticipate living much past 60 due to my various health issues (bipolar I, Crohn’s, autism, OCD, and some ancillary related concerns). I’ve been working on Twin Aster in some form or other for over 20 years, I’ve a fantasy setting I’ve not done much with, I’m an active musician (we’re working on the album; I’m set to track the drums in a few weeks), and I have filmmaking aspirations (my mentor is helping me with this last). I want to get the work out before I depart the text but I’ve been feeling kind of stonewalled lately, hence the topic I posted in Almea earlier—I realized that instead of guessing I could just ask after the source—and I often too exhausted after getting off work to do much.

I’m not getting any younger, and my life expectancy is reduced. I don’t want to leave the tales untold.

Chiming in after everyone else it looks like you have a lot going on, and quite a few things done already. You might be a bit too hard on yourself.

None of us know how much we're going to last.. but if it's any reassurance, I know people close to me with a similar set of health conditions who've reache 80 and look ready to go for ten years more.

I would have posted this in the AI thread if it hadn't been closed: https://whatever.scalzi.com/2025/10/02/ ... -that-bag/

Edit: LCK, PCK, and Conlanger's Lexipedia are all in the database.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 02, 2025 8:37 am I would have posted this in the AI thread if it hadn't been closed: https://whatever.scalzi.com/2025/10/02/ ... -that-bag/

Edit: LCK, PCK, and Conlanger's Lexipedia are all in the database.

Thanks for checking. Earlier I filed a claim for the LCK, on the chance it was included. I'll do the same for the other two books.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 02, 2025 8:37 am I would have posted this in the AI thread if it hadn't been closed: https://whatever.scalzi.com/2025/10/02/ ... -that-bag/

Edit: LCK, PCK, and Conlanger's Lexipedia are all in the database.

Regarding the subject of AI, I keep hearing that current AI projects mostly struggle to make a profit with many predicting the AI industry will implode when investors get tired of funding it without return on investment. That seems rather counterintuitive since AI has quite an obvious path to profit. Instead of studios hiring artists and writers, they could simply subscribe to AI services which produce whatever humans would otherwise without the expense of human employees. Likewise individuals could avoid the expense to commissioning artists by paying an AI company for the machine to draw their fursona or whatever instead. Given the incredible economy of scale inherent to generative AI (one model can produce far more content than any human in a given length of time) and reduced costs, it seems quite easy to outcompete unless they're charging more than humans would.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 02, 2025 3:39 pmAI has quite an obvious path to profit. Instead of studios hiring artists and writers, they could simply subscribe to AI services which produce whatever humans would otherwise without the expense of human employees. Likewise individuals could avoid the expense to commissioning artists by paying an AI company for the machine to draw their fursona or whatever instead.

How big do you think the fursona industry is?

To the extent that this could happen— it already has.

One site estimates that there are about 90,000 illustrators in the US. That is 0.05% of the labor market. If they all lose their jobs to AI, their ex-employers save $5.4 billion, which is 0.018% of the US economy.

That is not enough to make AI companies profitable— especially as they are all running major losses in order to create business. AI would look a lot less attractive if users had to pay what it actually costs.

To put some of these numbers in perspective, Google made $350 billion last year. OpenAI made $4 billion— and lost $5 billion.

Sure but there are numerous creative professions: illustrators, comic book artists, animators, graphic designers, novelists, screenwriters, musicians, composers, and so much more. One could also include numerous jobs involving the composition of text, like most office work and software engineering, as feasible targets of AI automation.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Oct 02, 2025 4:42 pmThat is not enough to make AI companies profitable— especially as they are all running major losses in order to create business. AI would look a lot less attractive if users had to pay what it actually costs.

To put some of these numbers in perspective, Google made $350 billion last year. OpenAI made $4 billion— and lost $5 billion.

Human employees also cost an extraordinary amount, though. The amount of humans you would need to replicate the sheer volume of content that ChatGPT or Midjourney can produce would probably cost billions per year.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 02, 2025 5:40 pm Sure but there are numerous creative professions: illustrators, comic book artists, animators, graphic designers, novelists, screenwriters, musicians, composers, and so much more.

Your idea that the people making money in this field are numerous is charming but wrong.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 02, 2025 5:40 pm Sure but there are numerous creative professions: illustrators, comic book artists, animators, graphic designers, novelists, screenwriters, musicians, composers, and so much more. One could also include numerous jobs involving the composition of text, like most office work and software engineering, as feasible targets of AI automation.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Oct 02, 2025 4:42 pmThat is not enough to make AI companies profitable— especially as they are all running major losses in order to create business. AI would look a lot less attractive if users had to pay what it actually costs.

To put some of these numbers in perspective, Google made $350 billion last year. OpenAI made $4 billion— and lost $5 billion.

Human employees also cost an extraordinary amount, though. The amount of humans you would need to replicate the sheer volume of content that ChatGPT or Midjourney can produce would probably cost billions per year.

You seem to seriously underestimate just how much money - as in, "would even be a lot for Elon Musk"-amounts of money - building and running major AI data centers costs. But this is threatening to turn into a repetition of the locked thread.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 02, 2025 6:03 pmYou seem to seriously underestimate just how much money - as in, "would even be a lot for Elon Musk"-amounts of money - building and running major AI data centers costs. But this is threatening to turn into a repetition of the locked thread.

One should not underestimate the amount of money it takes to raise humans from infancy to employment and keep them alive once employed. Before this discussion gets quashed, let me make the point that one AI data center can produce the output of thousands of humans. It takes months for one human to write one book whereas ChatGPT and other text generators can produce thousands of book-length per day. Thus it would take billions per year to employ enough humans to match ChatGPT in terms of content output.