Re: Elections in various countries
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:41 pm
So what's the point? Is it one of those just constructing for the sake of constructing projects?
I guess it's in case some audacious fool wants to travel between Hamburg and Copenhagen?
More specifically, it's meant to shorten the travel time between these cities, and more generally, between Germany and Scandinavia, and even more generally, between Scandinavia and Western Europe.Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:14 am I guess it's in case some audacious fool wants to travel between Hamburg and Copenhagen?
Oh, not really that much at the national level anymore these days; note that my post is mostly a historical overview. But it probably still plays a substantial role in many rural areas.
No, not really. Both parties have traditionally been mostly Catholic, though the CSU more so than the CDU.I had assumed the reason the CSU isn't part of the CDU was because of religious differences... So that's not really the case?
Oh, from a Southern European perspective, she's certainly been very Thatcher-ish. But she's usually only decisive if she's got the impression that a solid majority of the German of the German establishment agrees with her - otherwise, she usually tries to split the difference somehow. Besides, Thatcher seems to have had a kind of grim - ok, charisma is the wrong word, but a certain, well, ability to impress with determination. Merkel, less so. Thatcher's speeches could apparently make people burn with rage if they disagreed with her and inspire them if they agreed with her; Merkel's speeches mostly put people to sleep.Merkel was cast as some kind of Thatcher-lite in French media back in 2005, as I recall, and she's still not viewed very positively
I'll grant that there's some truth to the penny-scrounging thing, but being called arrogant by people from La Grande Nation is a bit rich! That said, it is annoying how many Germans, both inside and outside the political establishment, speak of "Europe" when they mean "Germany + France". Then again, that's at least two countries, unlike the French habit of saying "Europe" and meaning "France".(the French left can be unpleasantly xenophobic at times. For instance, the Germans are often portrayed as penny-scrounging, arrogant Prussians.)
Oh, she's certainly knowledgeable - she was, after all, a research scientist in her pre-politics life.But honestly, even though I'm not a conservative myself, I always found her to be an extremely competent ruler.
Yes, I do as well! And as it happens, I’ve actually been thinking along similar lines to you — the recent gruelling election has gotten me thinking about the political system in my own country of Australia. So I’d quite like to use this as an excuse to explain it to y’all, to show you what a really insane system of government looks like.
Oh, you're Australian? *slaps forehead* That explains everything! For some reason, based on your name and your apparent time zone, I had somehow assumed that you were an American living in East Asia.
Not sure about that - apart from the "three parties in a two-party system"-thing, and the compulsory voting thing, it sounds like a pretty standard combination of federalism with a parliamentary system to me.So I’d quite like to use this as an excuse to explain it to y’all, to show you what a really insane system of government looks like.
Oh, in Germany, like much of continental Europe, the word "liberal" is still mostly associated with supporting free-market policies, so it's somewhat common to describe people, groups, or organizations as "liberal-conservative", a term that probably makes about as much sense as calling someone a "right-wing leftist" to a person from, say, the USA. I once saw a right-wing German blogger describe George W. Bush as "a liberal-conservative president", which that blogger meant as praise; I guess Bush himself would be highly offended if he would hear of someone calling him any kind of "liberal".(I should take this moment to clarify one potentially confusing point. The Liberal party isn’t actually liberal — at the moment, it’s conservative. If you want to refer to liberalism in Australia, you have to call it ‘small-l liberalism’, as opposed to the ‘big-L Liberals’, a.k.a. conservatives. Note however that Australian politics is shifted somewhat leftwards as compared to, say, American politics, so what is conservative in Australia is somewhat liberal in the US, which of course means that the Liberal party — the conservative party in Australian politics — would still be considered fairly liberal in the US.)
(No, I don’t have any idea whatsoever why outsiders might find our politics confusing. Why do you ask?)
Aren't there some rumors of CIA involvement, too?The Governor-General has quite a lot of power — for instance, he can fire the PM. This has been done exactly once in Australian history, with the dismissal of Gough Whitlam in 1975; said republicans have tended to take this as a sure example of the Queen meddling in Australian politics. (There was quite the controversy about this event a couple of months back, when some correspondence between the Queen and the Governor-General at the time was finally unsealed; republicans seized on the one or two sentences which seemed like a sure-fire sign of Queenly meddling, whereas monarchists have tended to carefully ignore those sentences and point out that everything else in the correspondence is perfectly innocent.)
Interesting - in Germany, natural disasters (usually floods and the occasional severe storm) are generally seen as opportunities for politicians to show off their leadership skills. For instance, it is generally believed that Gerhard Schröder won the 2002 election, which everyone had predicted he would lose, because the 2002 Central European river floods gave him the opportunity to appear decisive. A while before that, at a time when future West German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt was a local politician few people had heard of, his career got a major boost when he was one of the people in charge of handling the 1962 North Sea Flood.Finally, let’s see an example of how this system works in practise. Let’s say you’ve got some crisis — say, record-breaking bushfires are rapidly burning everything in their path down the whole east coast. The federal government immediately springs into action, doing what they do best: flailing about ineffectually and getting absolutely nowhere in the process. (Notably, our PM took himself on a Christmas holiday to Hawaiʻi, presumably thinking that his presence was unneeded.) Eventually, the various states involved start to realise that no federal help is coming, and start to act themselves: deploying firefighters, evacuating residents etc. The people of Australia similarly start to help out and donate to charity — which promptly gets tangled up in the thickets of Australian bureaucracy, ensuring that the money will go to exactly the people who don’t need it. Similarly, the firefighters do an excellent job at containing the fires, even while realising that they have nearly have enough of the equipment that they need, said required equipment having also been tangled up in our bureaucracy. By this point, the federal government has realised they aren’t doing enough, and finally starts to do some productive work, viz., figuring out which party should get the blame. (Not them, of course! Everyone needs to know it’s the other party’s fault!) Eventually, the fires get put out by the rain, which by this point has become more than heavy enough to cause floods in exactly the same places which just got burnt to the ground. You gotta love this country.
Again interesting. I had always assumed that compulsory voting would strengthen radicals, with people who don't really want to vote because they hate the mainstream politicians voting for them. Good to know that your experience is different.Now some readers might get the impression that I’ve been somewhat negative about my country’s political system. So let me explain the one thing which counterbalances all those problems: we have compulsory voting! Let me explain how this helps. In the US, campaigning seems to revolve around getting the base excited enough for them to bother going out and voting. As the US has recently discovered, an excellent way to do this is through radicalism, a sure-fire way to get people motivated enough to wait through 8-hour queues to vote (so I hear). It also allows for exciting tactics such as voter suppression: there’s all sorts of interesting ways to convince people not to vote when that’s available as an option. By contrast, neither strategy works in Australia: radicalism may help you in the one or two seats where the people like that sort of thing, but it will mostly disgust the average voter — they have to vote for someone, and it sure ain’t gonna be that strange radical! Voter suppression doesn’t work either, in a country where it’s common knowledge that they fine you if you don’t vote. Instead, all the effort goes towards making voting as quick and easy as possible. (For instance, a well-known Australian tradition is the so-called ‘democracy sausage’: a sausage sizzle held by the local school as you wait to vote.) I can only assume that this is the sole reason why our politics hasn’t gone completely insane like all the other countries… yet.
I’m sure I’ve mentioned this quite a few times? (Though the ‘American’ bit isn’t entirely inaccurate — I was born in Canada, though I’ve lived nearly my entire life here.)Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:55 amOh, you're Australian? *slaps forehead* That explains everything! For some reason, based on your name and your apparent time zone, I had somehow assumed that you were an American living in East Asia.
Hmm, possibly… I have limited knowledge of other such systems.Not sure about that - apart from the "three parties in a two-party system"-thing, and the compulsory voting thing, it sounds like a pretty standard combination of federalism with a parliamentary system to me.So I’d quite like to use this as an excuse to explain it to y’all, to show you what a really insane system of government looks like.
That is interesting — the name definitely starts to make sense in that context. Still, in Australia, the Liberals are definitely thought of as the conservative party.Oh, in Germany, like much of continental Europe, the word "liberal" is still mostly associated with supporting free-market policies, so it's somewhat common to describe people, groups, or organizations as "liberal-conservative", a term that probably makes about as much sense as calling someone a "right-wing leftist" to a person from, say, the USA. I once saw a right-wing German blogger describe George W. Bush as "a liberal-conservative president", which that blogger meant as praise; I guess Bush himself would be highly offended if he would hear of someone calling him any kind of "liberal".(I should take this moment to clarify one potentially confusing point. The Liberal party isn’t actually liberal — at the moment, it’s conservative. If you want to refer to liberalism in Australia, you have to call it ‘small-l liberalism’, as opposed to the ‘big-L Liberals’, a.k.a. conservatives. Note however that Australian politics is shifted somewhat leftwards as compared to, say, American politics, so what is conservative in Australia is somewhat liberal in the US, which of course means that the Liberal party — the conservative party in Australian politics — would still be considered fairly liberal in the US.)
(No, I don’t have any idea whatsoever why outsiders might find our politics confusing. Why do you ask?)
Not that I’ve heard of.Aren't there some rumors of CIA involvement, too?The Governor-General has quite a lot of power — for instance, he can fire the PM. This has been done exactly once in Australian history, with the dismissal of Gough Whitlam in 1975; said republicans have tended to take this as a sure example of the Queen meddling in Australian politics. (There was quite the controversy about this event a couple of months back, when some correspondence between the Queen and the Governor-General at the time was finally unsealed; republicans seized on the one or two sentences which seemed like a sure-fire sign of Queenly meddling, whereas monarchists have tended to carefully ignore those sentences and point out that everything else in the correspondence is perfectly innocent.)
I wish!Interesting - in Germany, natural disasters (usually floods and the occasional severe storm) are generally seen as opportunities for politicians to show off their leadership skills. For instance, it is generally believed that Gerhard Schröder won the 2002 election, which everyone had predicted he would lose, because the 2002 Central European river floods gave him the opportunity to appear decisive. A while before that, at a time when future West German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt was a local politician few people had heard of, his career got a major boost when he was one of the people in charge of handling the 1962 North Sea Flood.Finally, let’s see an example of how this system works in practise. Let’s say you’ve got some crisis — say, record-breaking bushfires are rapidly burning everything in their path down the whole east coast. The federal government immediately springs into action, doing what they do best: flailing about ineffectually and getting absolutely nowhere in the process. (Notably, our PM took himself on a Christmas holiday to Hawaiʻi, presumably thinking that his presence was unneeded.) Eventually, the various states involved start to realise that no federal help is coming, and start to act themselves: deploying firefighters, evacuating residents etc. The people of Australia similarly start to help out and donate to charity — which promptly gets tangled up in the thickets of Australian bureaucracy, ensuring that the money will go to exactly the people who don’t need it. Similarly, the firefighters do an excellent job at containing the fires, even while realising that they have nearly have enough of the equipment that they need, said required equipment having also been tangled up in our bureaucracy. By this point, the federal government has realised they aren’t doing enough, and finally starts to do some productive work, viz., figuring out which party should get the blame. (Not them, of course! Everyone needs to know it’s the other party’s fault!) Eventually, the fires get put out by the rain, which by this point has become more than heavy enough to cause floods in exactly the same places which just got burnt to the ground. You gotta love this country.
Interesting observation; I do wonder why that hasn’t happened here, since it does seem like a plausible outcome.Again interesting. I had always assumed that compulsory voting would strengthen radicals, with people who don't really want to vote because they hate the mainstream politicians voting for them. Good to know that your experience is different.Now some readers might get the impression that I’ve been somewhat negative about my country’s political system. So let me explain the one thing which counterbalances all those problems: we have compulsory voting! Let me explain how this helps. In the US, campaigning seems to revolve around getting the base excited enough for them to bother going out and voting. As the US has recently discovered, an excellent way to do this is through radicalism, a sure-fire way to get people motivated enough to wait through 8-hour queues to vote (so I hear). It also allows for exciting tactics such as voter suppression: there’s all sorts of interesting ways to convince people not to vote when that’s available as an option. By contrast, neither strategy works in Australia: radicalism may help you in the one or two seats where the people like that sort of thing, but it will mostly disgust the average voter — they have to vote for someone, and it sure ain’t gonna be that strange radical! Voter suppression doesn’t work either, in a country where it’s common knowledge that they fine you if you don’t vote. Instead, all the effort goes towards making voting as quick and easy as possible. (For instance, a well-known Australian tradition is the so-called ‘democracy sausage’: a sausage sizzle held by the local school as you wait to vote.) I can only assume that this is the sole reason why our politics hasn’t gone completely insane like all the other countries… yet.
If the antivaxxers want to die from COVID, that's their right. But they have no right to kill other people with COVID.Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:57 am Oh, in support of the 'Greens are doing everything possible never to be elected": Yannick Jadot, the leader of the Greens in French announced that he supports mandatory vaccination against COVID-19.
Very good.
Cue the reaction of Green voters (and of course, conspiracy nuts): "That's totalitarism!!"
At times like this I really look forward to the upcoming climate apocalypse.
Hmm… I’m used to people regularly misspelling my name, but that’s one I hadn’t seen before! (Usually it ends up as bradm.)
If it wasn’t obvious, my post above was greatly exaggerated for humorous effect: you are of course correct with this statement. (And I also agree with your other statements on Israel in that post.)As a left-winger myself, I certainly think that opposition to Israel is overly common and exaggerated, especially among the left-wing.
But, as far as I can tell, this opposition does not generally amount to the destruction of Israel.
And I agree with this as well. (In general, I don’t at all enjoy discussing politics online, particularly not on such a controversial topic.)