Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 11:06 amI had planned to stay out of this discussion, but I want to state that I mostly agree with this.

jal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:00 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 11:06 amI had planned to stay out of this discussion, but I want to state that I mostly agree with this.

I originally also planned to stay out of it, but I myself can't walk free here either, as I've created a con-creole, which intentionally borrows heavily from existing CECs, which are of course famously created by the enslaved Africans that were imported to the area. So making a con-CEC may also be seen as cultural appropriation (although for me it's cultural appreciation).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:15 amSee, it's usages of 'cultural appropriation' in the sense that you referred to here that I particularly disagree with, i.e. things that essentially boil down to 'cultural borrowing by members of the dominant race/ethnicity/culture/etc. is bad' without requiring any good explanation as to why a particular case is notably bad. See, there is nothing actually negative about actually creating a con-CEC, but those who tend to throw around 'cultural appropriation' may see it as bad simply because you are a European who has created a conlang heavily inspired by creoles most heavily spoken by Caribbean people of African descent.

AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2025 11:47 am It took me a long time before I realized there are people in America who don't pronounce caught and cot the same way.

jal wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 10:28 am Note that one of the key parts of the definition of "cultural appropriation" is that the culture doing the appropriation has current or historical dominance over the culture that's being appropriated. Also, the fact that you can point to subtypes of this behaviour doesn't mean the umbrella term can never be useful.

Also note that, although I respect the idea of cultural appropriation, I think it's problematic in general, as "culture" is in most cases not something you created or own. You were handed it down, you inherited it from your parents, family, society. So basically you are claiming something that isn't yours, other than that you have grown up in it. There are exceptions of course, like rap music which is a relatively recent phenomenon, and we can point to the actual black people that started that scene, or gay pride, which nowadays may be celibrated by more non-gays than gays (to the dismay of some gays, especially those that lived through the early years of pride).

So concluding, when it's indeed one of the "highly problematic behaviours" Travis points out, we can all agree that's a bad thing. Other cases aren't that black-and-white (no pun intended), and it's wise to analyze what part, if any, is problematic and what can be done about it.


JAL

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 1:55 pm You don't agree with Wikipedia's suggestion that it's a hobson-jobson anglicisation of Mac Ambróis?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Mar 12, 2025 6:27 am Does anyone have any good resources on glottochronology?
It's an area I'd like to explore for conlanging.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 12, 2025 8:31 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Mar 12, 2025 6:27 am Does anyone have any good resources on glottochronology?
It's an area I'd like to explore for conlanging.

I don't have any references on hand... but I can assure you that it has at least a few micronylands, as shown by the famous example of English versus Icelandic.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Mar 17, 2025 9:32 am A completely different question: Are Italian surnames in -i from old genitives or from plurals? I used to think it was the former, but now consider the latter to be more likely. But I don't know.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Mar 17, 2025 9:32 am A completely different question: Are Italian surnames in -i from old genitives or from plurals? I used to think it was the former, but now consider the latter to be more likely. But I don't know.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Mar 18, 2025 5:34 am An inherited genitive is unlikely; Italian dialects lost the morphological genitive very early on.

One theory I read, which makes sense, is that it's a reborrowed genitive.
As in, clerks would write down Marco, son of Antonio in Latin: Marco (filius) Antoni.
Se non è vero, è ben trovato.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 18, 2025 6:22 am I'd just note that if learned Latin is involved, medicī doesn't help at all: it's both singular genitive and plural nominative. This is pretty common in Latin. But if you're naming a family, wouldn't you use the plural genitive medicōrum?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Mar 18, 2025 7:02 am I think a singular genitive makes sense if you're naming an individual, ie. if it's a patronymic: 'the son of the doctor'
This tends to fit the rest of Europe; outside Italy, family names are almost always in the singular.