Zompist Bboard Again

I thought English was the odd one out in the Germanic family when it comes to phonology, at least, if not also syntax and morphology.

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:06 pm I thought English was the odd one out in the Germanic family when it comes to phonology, at least, if not also syntax and morphology.

Well, English certainly is the odd one out in a few ways, most of them due to heavy foreign influence. But some of the "weird" facts about English actually have parallels in other Germanic languages. For example, English has a funky retroflex /r/, which seems out of place until you realize that Swedish/Norwegian has (phonetically) a whole retroflex series as allophones of rhotic + alveolar obstruent. Which leads one to believe that, at the very least, Germanic /r/ has a tendency towards retroflection. The uvular rhotic of German and Dutch is an areal feature originating in French. I think the real place where German stands out from the others is in it's morphology though: most other Germanic languages have basically eliminated case (English possible being the the most thorough), while German has kept it.

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:40 amFor example, English has a funky retroflex /r/, which seems out of place until you realize that Swedish/Norwegian has (phonetically) a whole retroflex series as allophones of rhotic + alveolar obstruent. Which leads one to believe that, at the very least, Germanic /r/ has a tendency towards retroflection.

How well does this work for English dialects outside America? For example, British /r/ is often labiodental.

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:40 amFor example, English has a funky retroflex /r/

A lot of native speakers of Dutch seem to have this, too, actually.

The uvular rhotic of German and Dutch is an areal feature originating in French.

This is apparently a common belief but not well established. Rhotics are notoriously unstable anyway, though.

I think the real place where German stands out from the others is in it's morphology though: most other Germanic languages have basically eliminated case (English possible being the the most thorough), while German has kept it.

That's just case, though, which is only one tiny part of the morphology. Probably the most famous aspect of German morphology is its longasswordsthatcantakeupanentirelinelikethisbutthisisprettytypicalofGermaniclanguagesanywayandit'sEnglishthat'sunusualinthisregard.

Vijay wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:18 pmProbably the most famous aspect of German morphology is its longasswordsthatcantakeupanentirelinelikethisbutthisisprettytypicalofGermaniclanguagesanywayandit'sEnglishthat'sunusualinthisregard.

But it isn't. We have longass words, too; we just write them separated instead of together.

For instance, one popular example of a long German compound noun is "Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän". But it you wrote it English-style, it would be "Donau dampfschiff fahrt's gesellschaft's kapitän", and if you wrote the English equivalent German-style, it would be "Danubesteamshipnavigationcompanycaptain" Either way, it's just as much of a multiply compound noun.

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:38 pm German has fantastically interesting syntax and nice morphology as well, but god it sounds ugly. There are so many great sounding Germanic languages as well, why in the world would you make a Germanic lang and then have it sound like that?

I have to disagree pointedly to the idea that German sounds "ugly".

German sounds nice, a bit like Middle English, but with a few rougher edges.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:35 pm

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:38 pm German has fantastically interesting syntax and nice morphology as well, but god it sounds ugly. There are so many great sounding Germanic languages as well, why in the world would you make a Germanic lang and then have it sound like that?

I have to disagree pointedly to the idea that German sounds "ugly".

Agreed. I always saw this as evidence of how little aesthetic judgments were informed by actual linguistic facts and how much more they were a product of societal preferences. I grew being told German was ugly because it was "harsh and guttural" and French was beautiful because it wasn't only to find when I started studying phonology that French has a higher ratio of dorsal consonants (and--in particular--dorsal fricatives) than German.

That said, Saxon dialect is unequivocally the worst-sounding form of human vocalisation ever produced.

I think French and German also, incidentally, sound moderately similar to each-other.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:08 pmI think French and German also, incidentally, sound moderately similar to each-other.

The first language I remember seriously studying is French. After I learned some French, I immediately wanted to start also seriously studying Spanish; after all, it's closely related to French (i.e. they're both Romance), and Spanish is far more widely spoken here in Texas. However, my dad was really pushing me to do German instead because he happened to speak a little bit of German, or so he thought. He would joke about how excited he was about the possibility of me learning German so I'd start to sound like Adolf Hitler(??????). To my delight and his disappointment, German sounded far more like French than I expected, and he claimed that I learned more in a day than he could remember from three years or something.

One big difference between French and German, though, is that French only has stress at the end of phrases typically, while German is much more English-like in its stress paradigm, typically in Germanic content words stressing the first syllable of the each root while in words of Latinate, Romance, Greek, and Slavic origin placing stress less predictably.

For instance, German to me has a cadence similar to English, whereas French is just a mushy mess of syllables. (When I hear German I actually parse it into words, whereas I can't do that with French.)

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:03 pm German sounds nice, a bit like Middle English, but with a few rougher edges.

I absolutely adore Middle English (...as evidenced by my signature...) and I must say I do not agree with this characterization at all. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade of course (if you like the sound of German, that's great!) but I think the two sound very different. In particular, ME has dental fricatives, an alveolar trilled rhotic, and rhythmic stress, whereas German has lexical stress, no dental fricatives and a rhotic which ranges from [ʀ] to [ɐ̯]. IMO these are pretty major differences that give ME much more phonaesthetic appeal to me.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:05 pm I always saw this as evidence of how little aesthetic judgments were informed by actual linguistic facts and how much more they were a product of societal preferences. I grew being told German was ugly because it was "harsh and guttural" and French was beautiful because it wasn't only to find when I started studying phonology that French has a higher ratio of dorsal consonants (and--in particular--dorsal fricatives) than German.

Actually, in some sense what I dislike about German is that it's not guttural enough. The realization /x, ʀ/ as [ç, ɐ̯] is probably my least favorite thing about German phonology, and if those sounds were actually [x, ʀ] most of the time I think I'd like it much better.

German sounds a little musical to me -- it's the stress patterns, I think. It sounds great for poetry and philosophy (OK, I know that's just another stereotype...)

That said, Saxon dialect is unequivocally the worst-sounding form of human vocalisation ever produced.

You forgot Bavarian/Austrian!

I love Bavarian and Austrian; the weirdest thing about Austrian to me is how little it seems to differ from Bavarian (I know they're right next door, but still, like even eastern Austrian varieties?). I've heard Saxon before; IIRC I loved that as well. I just love everything!

Did anyone notice weird consonsnt clusters in Polish?;

In particular in hrases like
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz
W Szczebrzeezynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie

Dunno if wnyone would pronounce thid without getting tired

This thread is turning into the usual linguistic stereotypes.

Vijay wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:49 pm This thread is turning into the usual linguistic stereotypes.

Haha I am Polish.

Polish really doesn't seem that bad - rather, it's just that its orthography overuses ⟨z⟩.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:29 pm Polish really doesn't seem that bad - rather, it's just that its orthography overuses ⟨z⟩.

Oh really? It’s one of only two Indo–European languages which Easterday classifies as having ‘highly complex syllable structure’. (The other is Albanian.)