Zompist Bboard Again

I'd have said [sle̞xtɑ] because I thought it's Dutch, but if it's not Dutch... well, if it's actually Šlechta like Pabappa said, then [ʃle̞xtɑ].

Related to the <ch>... this was probably posted in the thread on the old board (I might have posted it myself), but:

orchard

I keep thinking it should be /ɔːkɑːd/ and have definitely heard it pronounced that way, I'm 90% certain it was pronounced like that by one of the actors in the film Henry's Crime? Or it could've been that it was /ɔːtʃəd/ (or the rhotic version) and I was confused that it wasn't /ɔːkɑːd/ and that made me misremember? But I think it was /ɔːkɑːd/, anyway; it's been a while since I saw that film so I could be wrong, but I've heard it pronounced like that somewhere. It's not that /ɔːtʃəd/ sounds wrong or anything, but for some reason the "or card" pronunciation is impossible to shake.

I don't know if I used to think it was an Italian loanword or something, but anyway... it's kinda funny because with some other words, where <ch> is actually supposed to be /k/, I just can't shake the /t͡ʃ/.

Estav wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:02 pmThat pronunciation does exist.

Oh, ok.

Estav wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:02 pmMany American English speakers have the THOUGHT vowel in the word "palm"; sometimes this goes with including the consonant phoneme /l/.

I thought so but couldn't find anything about it being a thing, thanks for confirming it.

Estav wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:02 pmone thing I've wondered is whether it's related to the fact that AmEng speakers also don't use the "PALM" (FAther/BRA) vowel in -alf words like half, calf (but they use TRAP rather than THOUGHT here).

Really?! Someone's out there saying /hæf/ and /kæf/...? I guess now that I think about it, maybe it's just that it'd sound so funny that I've never actually registered it even if I've obviously have to have heard it, because if I had taken it in I'd have started laughing uncontrollably. But really, I'm seriously confused right now because I've definitely heard Americans say "half" and "calf" but it's never struck me that they didn't say /hɑːf/ and /kɑːf/...

Estav wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:02 pmUsing the thought vowel (without /l/) in -alm words was a feature of Irish English in the late 1700s according to John Walker's Pronouncing Dictionary of 1791 (p. ix), so it isn't necessarily American-English-specific (I don't know whether it is correct to characterize it as a "merger").

Huh, obviously I've never heard 18th-century Irish so it couldn't be that I've been influenced by it... but if it's still a thing in some Irish English today, then maybe that could be where I got it from, but if it's not a thing anymore... well, I probably just picked it up from American English and the /l/ got dropped in my head for some reason.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:47 pmI think part of why this word feels so weird is that it's a Latin-Greek hybrid. An all-Greek coinage would be something like asophia, and while that could still have at least two different pronunciations, those pronunciations would fit into a well-established "a-....-ia" pattern that we recognize from words like amnesia, ataxia, arrythmia, etc.

Personally I don't get what the big deal with Latin-Greek hybrid words is. I mean, English isn't Latin or Greek.

Estav wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:02 pmMy favorite example is aspiny, for an animal with no spines on its body. (Can't use "spineless" because we already use that for the other kind of spine.)

But hmm, that really is a pretty funny-looking word... probably because it makes me think of aspen, which makes me think of "ass pen". Not that I'd think of pens in asses every time I see the word "aspen", but... you know what I mean.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:19 pm...

Interesting stuff. English vowels really are some of the weirdest things when it comes to the phonologies of all of the world's languages, and yet people say "English isn't exotic" and whatnot as if it had the most straightforward phonology and as if it hadn't had tons of weird sound changes.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:29 pmnow that I look at it, the wiktionary entry seems to have been a neologism added by its creator. So there's no real attestation at all.

Oh well, it's still a cool word and could mean exactly the thing it "should" mean. Just because it's a neologism doesn't mean it's invalid, or at least that's how I feel.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:29 pm To Vlürch:
Would you consider changing the name of the album to Agnosia?
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/agnosia has a much more solid use.

No. It is a cool word too and obviously more familiar to everyone, but a big part of the reason I want to call it "Ascience" is that it's an obscure word that could be interpreted in different ways. I'm not sure if it's what I'll go with (I know I'll call an album that), not yet sure if it's the most fitting name for the one I'm currently working on. Maybe it'd be better for a more "polished-sounding" album instead of one that's fairly lo-fi. I might call a song "Agnosia" or "Agnosis", but as the name of the album... eh. I also like how "Ascience" can be stylised as "ascıence" so that nothing sticks out.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:36 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:02 pm I have a question - are -ke names Low German names? I would presume that -ke is cognate with High German -chen.

As a rule, yes, though they can also be Germanicised versions of Slavic names with diminutive -ka.

Which wouldn't be surprising considering that much of the historically East Low German-speaking area was Slavic-speaking before it was Low German-speaking.

Vlürch wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:54 am

Estav wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:02 pmone thing I've wondered is whether it's related to the fact that AmEng speakers also don't use the "PALM" (FAther/BRA) vowel in -alf words like half, calf (but they use TRAP rather than THOUGHT here).

Really?! Someone's out there saying /hæf/ and /kæf/...? :shock: I guess now that I think about it, maybe it's just that it'd sound so funny that I've never actually registered it even if I've obviously have to have heard it, because if I had taken it in I'd have started laughing uncontrollably. But really, I'm seriously confused right now because I've definitely heard Americans say "half" and "calf" but it's never struck me that they didn't say /hɑːf/ and /kɑːf/... :?

I've never heard anyone (in America) say anything besides /hæf/ and /kæf/ for these words, and it's certainly how I pronounce them. I'd assume someone was from overseas somewhere if they pronounced it otherwise.

Whimemsz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:34 am

Vlürch wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:54 am

Estav wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:02 pmone thing I've wondered is whether it's related to the fact that AmEng speakers also don't use the "PALM" (FAther/BRA) vowel in -alf words like half, calf (but they use TRAP rather than THOUGHT here).

Really?! Someone's out there saying /hæf/ and /kæf/...? I guess now that I think about it, maybe it's just that it'd sound so funny that I've never actually registered it even if I've obviously have to have heard it, because if I had taken it in I'd have started laughing uncontrollably. But really, I'm seriously confused right now because I've definitely heard Americans say "half" and "calf" but it's never struck me that they didn't say /hɑːf/ and /kɑːf/...

I've never heard anyone (in America) say anything besides /hæf/ and /kæf/ for these words, and it's certainly how I pronounce them. I'd assume someone was from overseas somewhere if they pronounced it otherwise.

I too have never heard any Americans ever pronounce half or calf as anything other than /hæf/ or /kæf/. /hɑːf/ and /kɑːf/ sound distinctly foreign to me.

I pronounce the l's, which is one of the ways everyone knows I'm a foreigner of some sort

mèþru wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:20 pm I pronounce the l's, which is one of the ways everyone knows I'm a foreigner of some sort

I pronounce the L in balm sometimes, but only because otherwise it's homophonous with bomb. "Is there no [bɑm] in Gilead?" Well, I hope there's no bomb in Gilead...

Zaarin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:54 pm

mèþru wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:20 pm I pronounce the l's, which is one of the ways everyone knows I'm a foreigner of some sort

I pronounce the L in balm sometimes, but only because otherwise it's homophonous with bomb. "Is there no [bɑm] in Gilead?" Well, I hope there's no bomb in Gilead...

I frequently have -[ɒ̃(ː)ɤ̯̃m] or -[ɒ̃(ː)m] in -alm words, which is probably a spelling pronunciation (e.g. my dad has -[ã(ː)m] in these words, which is what one would expect for a non-spelling-pronounced pronunciation in the dialect here).

Zaarin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:54 pm

mèþru wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:20 pm I pronounce the l's, which is one of the ways everyone knows I'm a foreigner of some sort

I pronounce the L in balm sometimes, but only because otherwise it's homophonous with bomb. "Is there no [bɑm] in Gilead?" Well, I hope there's no bomb in Gilead...

This wouldn't be a problem if y'all wouldn't merge cot-caught!

"Salmon" and "almond" with /l/ still grate on my ears, but then I grew up without knowing you could pronounce "walk" and "talk" with /l/.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:54 am

Zaarin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:54 pm

mèþru wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:20 pm I pronounce the l's, which is one of the ways everyone knows I'm a foreigner of some sort

I pronounce the L in balm sometimes, but only because otherwise it's homophonous with bomb. "Is there no [bɑm] in Gilead?" Well, I hope there's no bomb in Gilead...

This wouldn't be a problem if y'all wouldn't merge cot-caught!

"Salmon" and "almond" with /l/ still grate on my ears, but then I grew up without knowing you could pronounce "walk" and "talk" with /l/.

I'm not COT-CAUGHT merged, but I do have [ɑ] for both PALM words and bomb. Salmon with an /l/ is grating, but I've only heard almond without an /l/ once in the wild and it was quite startling. I don't have /l/ in calm, but I've gotten so used to hearing it it doesn't bother me anymore.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:54 am

Zaarin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:54 pm

mèþru wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:20 pm I pronounce the l's, which is one of the ways everyone knows I'm a foreigner of some sort

I pronounce the L in balm sometimes, but only because otherwise it's homophonous with bomb. "Is there no [bɑm] in Gilead?" Well, I hope there's no bomb in Gilead...

This wouldn't be a problem if y'all wouldn't merge cot-caught!

Wait, do you NOT merge 'balm' and 'bomb'? That "should" be the father-bother merger, which I assume you have... or has your CLOTH vowel spread as far even as "bomb" now?

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:40 pm Wait, do you NOT merge 'balm' and 'bomb'? That "should" be the father-bother merger, which I assume you have... or has your CLOTH vowel spread as far even as "bomb" now?

Note: There are people like myself who have /bɔː(l)m/ for balm.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:56 pm

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:40 pm Wait, do you NOT merge 'balm' and 'bomb'? That "should" be the father-bother merger, which I assume you have... or has your CLOTH vowel spread as far even as "bomb" now?

Note: There are people like myself who have /bɔː(l)m/ for balm.

Yeah, it seems I have some kind of palm-father split? I guess that's unusual? (Looking at the PALM lexical set, I see that bra is also CLOTH but spa isn't. Curious.)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:10 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:56 pm

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:40 pm Wait, do you NOT merge 'balm' and 'bomb'? That "should" be the father-bother merger, which I assume you have... or has your CLOTH vowel spread as far even as "bomb" now?

Note: There are people like myself who have /bɔː(l)m/ for balm.

Yeah, it seems I have some kind of palm-father split? I guess that's unusual? (Looking at the PALM lexical set, I see that bra is also CLOTH but spa isn't. Curious.)

I pronounce FATHER and LOT alike but unlike PALM, except when I am trying to deliberately correct said spelling pronunciation. For me both bra and spa are FATHER/LOT.

I think sometimes I pronounce father with [a], but I think that's a behavior I learned from (a misinterpretation of) one of my linguistics textbooks (and only in careful speech and/or in isolation).

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:10 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:56 pm

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:40 pm Wait, do you NOT merge 'balm' and 'bomb'? That "should" be the father-bother merger, which I assume you have... or has your CLOTH vowel spread as far even as "bomb" now?

Note: There are people like myself who have /bɔː(l)m/ for balm.

Yeah, it seems I have some kind of palm-father split? I guess that's unusual? (Looking at the PALM lexical set, I see that bra is also CLOTH but spa isn't. Curious.)

The status and history of words spelled with -alm, like balm and palm, was discussed on the previous page of this thread. It's not that unusual for American English speakers to have /ɔ/ in these words. RP had /ɑː/, and as far as I know, so does contemporary standard southern British English.

Bra is not a CLOTH word. The CLOTH lexical set is for words that have the vowel of LOT (typically transcribed /ɒ/) in RP and the vowel of THOUGHT (typically transcribed /ɔ/) in a "General American" accent without the cot-caught merger. Both bra and spa have /ɑː/ in RP and /ɑ/ in GA. John Wells, who came up with the lexical sets, put both bra and spa in the PALM set, which is for words with /ɑː/ in both reference accents: the name is unfortunate in light of the American English variation in the word "palm" itself, but it's hard to find a good word that fits other criteria that Wells considered important (e.g. he preferred to use words with a consonant after the vowel, and he avoided using "father" because some relatively well-studied accents such as Hiberno-English don't use /ɑ(ː)/ in that word).

It's confusing to talk about RP in these contexts when you mean SSBE, because the fact that CLOTH words DON'T have the LOT vowel in RP is one of the defining features of RP (along with happy-tensing).

I think lb means that "bra" is a CLOTH word for him.

Out of curiosity:
- palm, alms, calm, balm, psalm, almond
- hurrah, pa, ma, bra, spa, ska, shah
- tomato, desperado, avocado, llama, sonata
- Khan, iguana
- father, rather
- aunt
- half, calf
- laugh
- start, card, car
- Cara, Dara, Zara

Those of you who have /O/ (THOUGHT) for some of these, which of these do you have it for?

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:39 pmBra is not a CLOTH word. The CLOTH lexical set is for words that have the vowel of LOT (typically transcribed /ɒ/) in RP and the vowel of THOUGHT (typically transcribed /ɔ/) in a "General American" accent without the cot-caught merger. Both bra and spa have /ɑː/ in RP and /ɑ/ in GA. John Wells, who came up with the lexical sets, put them both in the PALM set, which is for words with /ɑː/ in both reference accents: the name is unfortunate, but it's hard to find a good word that fits other criteria that Wells considered important (e.g. he preferred to use words with a consonant after the vowel, and he avoided using "father" because some relatively well-studied British accents use a different vowel in that word).

Sorry for being unclear. I means bra and spa are both given as PALM words by Wells, but for me bra has a CLOTH vowel. (Probably closer to [ɒ] in my speech than a true [ɔ].)

I'm wondering if this could have something to do with when and where I learned these words. Between the ages of 6 and 18 I lived in St Louis, Missouri, which traditionally had the card-cord merger. As a result, a few NORTH words (e.g. forest, horror) have the vowel of START in my speech. Before that, I lived in Baltimore. (I still say [ˈwɔɹɾɚ] for "water".) So it could be that I assigned different values to words from the "same" lexical set depending on what the prevailing norm around me was at the time.

I'm going to have ask my family about bras and see what I can find out.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:56 pm Sorry for being unclear. I means bra and spa are both given as PALM words by Wells, but for me bra has a CLOTH vowel. (Probably closer to [ɒ] in my speech than a true [ɔ].)

It seems like most Americans have relatively open THOUGHT vowels, contrasting with THOUGHT in many EngE varieties and in AusE. (In the dialect here THOUGHT/CLOTH is fully open, unlike NORTH/FORCE, which is mid-open.)

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:52 pm It's confusing to talk about RP in these contexts when you mean SSBE, because the fact that CLOTH words DON'T have the LOT vowel in RP is one of the defining features of RP (along with happy-tensing).

I probably shouldn't have used the term "RP", since it isn't precise. I was following Wells's usage: the accent Wells calls "RP" and uses as a reference accent for British English had/has the LOT vowel in CLOTH words.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:56 pm I meant bra and spa are both given as PALM words by Wells, but for me bra has a CLOTH vowel. (Probably closer to [ɒ] in my speech than a true [ɔ].)

Ah, I see. I would just call that the THOUGHT vowel, since the only point of having the separate keyword CLOTH is to indicate that words in that set have a certain distribution between dialects (the CLOTH vowel is a diaphoneme rather than a phoneme).

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:56 pm I'm wondering if this could have something to do with when and where I learned these words. Between the ages of 6 and 18 I lived in St Louis, Missouri, which traditionally had the card-cord merger. As a result, a few NORTH words (e.g. forest, horror) have the vowel of START in my speech.

I'm curious, do you have START in any word spelled with "or" followed by a consonant? I think START in words with "or" followed by a vowel is a bit more widespread than the card-cord merger; it's given as an variant pronunciation in the AHD and MW entries for forest.

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:09 pmI'm curious, do you have START in any word spelled with "or" followed by a consonant? I think START in words with "or" followed by a vowel is a bit more widespread than the card-cord merger; it's given as an variant pronunciation in the AHD and MW entries for forest.

Cork (city and county), orchestra, sporadically in shorts and corporal.