Random Thread

[Raphael]

I'm a bit late to the party but this still warrants posting:

the problem with banning people from the ZBB for their political views is the fact that this isn't an online community about politics, this is an online community about making conlangs. politics have virtually no foothold here, or at least that's how it ought to be, and it should be kept that way.

Who appointed you the person to decide how things ought to be here?

It's partly an online community about making conlangs. It's also, and had originally grown out of, a place for discussing zompist's own conworld(s) and conlangs. It's also a place for discussing conworlding, which is unavoidably connected to questions of how to run cultures and societies, which is unavoidably connected to politics.

[/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/]

Who appointed you the person to decide how things ought to be here?

woah, hey, what's with the steam?

It's partly an online community about making conlangs. It's also, and had originally grown out of, a place for discussing zompist's own conworld(s) and conlangs. It's also a place for discussing conworlding, which is unavoidably connected to questions of how to run cultures and societies, which is unavoidably connected to politics.

"questions about how to run made up cultures and societies" is not only vastly different from "politics", but that's also entirely beside the point I was trying to put across.

[Raphael]

Who appointed you the person to decide how things ought to be here?

woah, hey, what's with the steam?

You stated your strong opinion. I stated mine.

And, I kind of react allergically to people demanding that politics should be kept out of this or that. Those demands are usually made in bad faith by right-wingers who have no problem with soaking everything they can in their own political views.

"questions about how to run made up cultures and societies" is not only vastly different from "politics",

Not at all. Politics is entirely about how to run a culture or society. As long as a made up culture or society isn't meant to be completely surreal, the question of how to run it isn't all that different from the question of how to run a real world culture or society.

[/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/]

Not at all. Politics is entirely about how to run a culture or society. As long as a made up culture or society isn't meant to be completely surreal, the question of how to run it isn't all that different from the question of how to run a real world culture or society.

the difference is in the idea that one is made up and isn't being taken seriously by anyone, while the other is not.

[Travis B.]

Not at all. Politics is entirely about how to run a culture or society. As long as a made up culture or society isn't meant to be completely surreal, the question of how to run it isn't all that different from the question of how to run a real world culture or society.

the difference is in the idea that one is made up and isn't being taken seriously by anyone, while the other is not.

One thing one should remember is that one's conworlds need not reflect one's personal political ideals. Just because one is a socialist does not mean, and probably should not mean, that one's conworlds are either socialist paradises or capitalist dystopias, for instance.

[Raphael]

Not at all. Politics is entirely about how to run a culture or society. As long as a made up culture or society isn't meant to be completely surreal, the question of how to run it isn't all that different from the question of how to run a real world culture or society.

the difference is in the idea that one is made up and isn't being taken seriously by anyone, while the other is not.

Many - not all, but many - people who make up stuff try to keep the stuff they make up at least somewhat plausible. That is, they try to make up stuff that might theoretically exist in the real world. Which means that discussing it will involve questions of what might, or might not, plausibly work in the real world. Which is a political question. Perhaps the political question.

[WeepingElf]

I'm a bit late to the party but this still warrants posting:

the problem with banning people from the ZBB for their political views is the fact that this isn't an online community about politics, this is an online community about making conlangs. politics have virtually no foothold here, or at least that's how it ought to be, and it should be kept that way.

Who appointed you the person to decide how things ought to be here?

It's partly an online community about making conlangs. It's also, and had originally grown out of, a place for discussing zompist's own conworld(s) and conlangs. It's also a place for discussing conworlding, which is unavoidably connected to questions of how to run cultures and societies, which is unavoidably connected to politics.

I can only state what I see in the ZBB, and that is a community that is chiefly about making conlangs, making conworlds, discussing conlangs and conworlds made by others (chiefly zompist's, but discussion about e.g. Tolkien's legendarium, while not happening right now, would be welcome) and linguistics, with an area for other topics (Ephemera) where politics may be discussed as long as everybody stays fair and polite and does not post about politics in threads where it doesn't belong.

[rotting bones]

I can only state what I see in the ZBB, and that is a community that is chiefly about making conlangs, making conworlds, and linguistics, with an area for other topics (Ephemera) where politics may be discussed as long as everybody stays fair and polite and does not post about politics in threads where it doesn't belong.

There is so much discussion of other topics because it's very difficult to get engagement with conlanging, especially for newbies like me.

I have already put more effort into the Hyperborea thread than I did into Ephemera in the last six months. I got two responses so far. I understand that it's hard to comment meaningfully on my half baked fictional ideas, and I'm grateful to the people who posted those responses. I myself haven't commented as much on other people's ideas, not at all recently, mostly because I feel like I'm not qualified to comment. Nevertheless, people will gravitate towards the subjects that are easier to talk about like politics. This is just water flowing downhill.

[rotting bones]

‘Centrist liberal’ does seem like a pretty reasonable description of my views. I’m not averse to centre-right candidates (as long as they’re more centrist than right-wing), but in the last Australian election I voted for Labor, which is centre-left.

Since the managerial revolution, "centrist liberalism" has been the weakly right-leaning policy package often called "neoliberalism". Market managerialism pushes through austerity measures that ruin the lives of the poor while the rich maintain control over their lives.

[bradrn]

‘Centrist liberal’ does seem like a pretty reasonable description of my views. I’m not averse to centre-right candidates (as long as they’re more centrist than right-wing), but in the last Australian election I voted for Labor, which is centre-left.

Since the managerial revolution, "centrist liberalism" has been the weakly right-leaning policy package often called "neoliberalism". Market managerialism pushes through austerity measures that ruin the lives of the poor while the rich maintain control over their lives.

Well, I certainly wouldn’t call myself a ‘neoliberal’: for one thing I believe that regulation is often extremely important, whereas neoliberals (insofar as I understand their position at all) tend to strongly dislike it.

[Raphael]

I can only state what I see in the ZBB, and that is a community that is chiefly about making conlangs, making conworlds, discussing conlangs and conworlds made by others (chiefly zompist's, but discussion about e.g. Tolkien's legendarium, while not happening right now, would be welcome) and linguistics, with an area for other topics (Ephemera) where politics may be discussed as long as everybody stays fair and polite and does not post about politics in threads where it doesn't belong.

Hypothetical development of a discussion:

Alice: Does your Plepoterian Empire restrict trade in fox pears? Could that actually work?

Bob: Yes, and I think it could. Think of the treatment of merchants under the Ming Dynasty. It had the effect that...

(15 rounds of back and forth later)

Chuck: ...and actually, this policy was only finally ended under Mao. Now, if you look at the theory of Maoism...

(another 4 rounds of back and forth later)

Debbie: So you're saying it would be great if Canada would be taken over by Maoists, so that there could be a Cultural Revolution? That's just sick! What a repulsive attitude!

How would you reliably prevent such a development in some thread?

And even if we just look at your own examples, I don't know how to discuss Tolkien at length without eventually veering into politics. Or at least religion, which is extremely close to politics.

[rotting bones]

Well, I certainly wouldn’t call myself a ‘neoliberal’: for one thing I believe that regulation is often extremely important, whereas neoliberals (insofar as I understand their position at all) tend to strongly dislike it.

No one does. Regardless of their rhetoric, the smart "neoliberals" tend to support certain kinds of regulations. This is how they differ from idealistic libertarians. However, they selectively use regulations to strengthen market discipline instead of challenging it for the betterment of the weakest sections of society. This enshrines the exploitation of the poor into law.

[Man in Space]

Hypothetical development of a discussion:

Alice: Does your Plepoterian Empire restrict trade in fox pears? Could that actually work?

Bob: Yes, and I think it could. Think of the treatment of merchants under the Ming Dynasty. It had the effect that...

(15 rounds of back and forth later)

Chuck: ...and actually, this policy was only finally ended under Mao. Now, if you look at the theory of Maoism...

(another 4 rounds of back and forth later)

Debbie: So you're saying it would be great if Canada would be taken over by Maoists, so that there could be a Cultural Revolution? That's just sick! What a repulsive attitude!

If Alice and Bob were involved it would have gone something like this:

Alice: Thanks to my new laptop, I have brought my sound-change applier into the 20th century with modern programming techniques and methods.

Bob: Hey, that’s great. I am the foremost scholar in logographic languages, you know. Perhaps I could help you. Historical linguistics is kind of my specialty, what with my BA Linguistics…

[Travis B.]

I can only state what I see in the ZBB, and that is a community that is chiefly about making conlangs, making conworlds, and linguistics, with an area for other topics (Ephemera) where politics may be discussed as long as everybody stays fair and polite and does not post about politics in threads where it doesn't belong.

There is so much discussion of other topics because it's very difficult to get engagement with conlanging, especially for newbies like me.

I have already put more effort into the Hyperborea thread than I did into Ephemera in the last six months. I got two responses so far. I understand that it's hard to comment meaningfully on my half baked fictional ideas, and I'm grateful to the people who posted those responses. I myself haven't commented as much on other people's ideas, not at all recently, mostly because I feel like I'm not qualified to comment. Nevertheless, people will gravitate towards the subjects that are easier to talk about like politics. This is just water flowing downhill.

Part of this may be because vast volumes of text are harder for people (myself included) to digest than more bite-sized chunks of text.

[Man in Space]

There is so much discussion of other topics because it's very difficult to get engagement with conlanging, especially for newbies like me. . . .I myself haven't commented as much on other people's ideas, not at all recently, mostly because I feel like I'm not qualified to comment.

Same—I don’t like to spam the board with things like just “Cool!” or “I dig it”.

[rotting bones]

Part of this may be because vast volumes of text are harder for people (myself included) to digest than more bite-sized chunks of text.

I mean, an outline of a language requires a phonology, morphology and syntax. It's not short no matter which way you slice it unless you leave out a lot or go some kind of a cookie cutter route. What I wanted to do with Toukanta is a language that uses consonant mutations to indicate topicality. It's a hard language to speak or describe. Tables will be shorter, but I personally understand lists better than tables. I'm sure there are still errors in there regardless. I didn't even manage to put half the example sentences I wanted to in there. Most of the short examples in the beginning are invalidated after you reach the pragmatics section. /facepalm

[zompist]

You, linguoboy and Salmoneus were major contributors to the effort I'm referring to.

You said "our arguments", so I assumed you were referring to yourself.

Obviously I believe in putting coherent left-wing thought out there, and I hope it helps. It's more likely to help waverers rather than actual right-wingers.

As Raphael noted, some disruptive trollish people were finally kicked out. But hey, thanks for recognizing the work linguoboy and I have put into keeping the board a good place.

What kicked out?

I don't remember all the names right now and the old board is down. Pthag was the ringleader. Several people voluntarily followed him.

I distinctly remember you told Pabappa you liked him. Like Nort, he eventually mellowed out and started posting centrist conservative politics. Well, except that he implicitly trusted Putin. He posted predictions about Putin magnanimously ending the war. When Putin humiliated himself, he stopped posting.

Unlike the others, he was always civil and friendly. His own account of why he left, which is private, is completely different from yours.

Oh wait, you didn't recognize it, you just trollishly insulted my integrity. Wow, I'm sure glad I provide a forum for you to shit on.

I didn't even respond to you. For some reason, you like to interpret everything I post as a personal attack on you.

You claimed that the board would go back to "Nazism". The ZBB is not a corporation or even some kind of cooperative. It's my personal forum, so your accusation is an attack on my personal integrity, as well as the admin work that keeps the board relatively benign.

If you (like Salmoneus) don't like my personality, go ahead and ban me. I can post my stuff on my personal website.

I don't dislike you, but you are unnecessarily abrasive and you should reflect on that.

[Man in Space]

I got vaccinated (COVID, flu, hepatitis B) yesterday and I’m paying for it today.

[Ares Land]

There is so much discussion of other topics because it's very difficult to get engagement with conlanging, especially for newbies like me.

I have already put more effort into the Hyperborea thread than I did into Ephemera in the last six months. I got two responses so far. I understand that it's hard to comment meaningfully on my half baked fictional ideas, and I'm grateful to the people who posted those responses. I myself haven't commented as much on other people's ideas, not at all recently, mostly because I feel like I'm not qualified to comment. Nevertheless, people will gravitate towards the subjects that are easier to talk about like politics. This is just water flowing downhill.

Oh, this might be of interest to most people on the board. I try to keep up with most of the conlang scratchpads. Your work certainly isn't newbie-ish. It's generally hard to interact on the conlanging thread, because most of them are like, great work, and it's hard to say anything but 'I'd like to see more of that'


It's easier to react to the politics! The politics threads here are usually very interesting. They tend to get a bit overheated, but that's true of all political discussions, and to be expected as people are knowledgeable and pretty clear on what they stand for. I think most everyone can learn something from them, I certainly did.

[Travis B.]

There is so much discussion of other topics because it's very difficult to get engagement with conlanging, especially for newbies like me.

I have already put more effort into the Hyperborea thread than I did into Ephemera in the last six months. I got two responses so far. I understand that it's hard to comment meaningfully on my half baked fictional ideas, and I'm grateful to the people who posted those responses. I myself haven't commented as much on other people's ideas, not at all recently, mostly because I feel like I'm not qualified to comment. Nevertheless, people will gravitate towards the subjects that are easier to talk about like politics. This is just water flowing downhill.

Oh, this might be of interest to most people on the board. I try to keep up with most of the conlang scratchpads. Your work certainly isn't newbie-ish. It's generally hard to interact on the conlanging thread, because most of them are like, great work, and it's hard to say anything but 'I'd like to see more of that'


It's easier to react to the politics! The politics threads here are usually very interesting. They tend to get a bit overheated, but that's true of all political discussions, and to be expected as people are knowledgeable and pretty clear on what they stand for. I think most everyone can learn something from them, I certainly did.

I agree -- when I do read the scratchpad threads I often find them interesting but I don't really know what to add to them (even though admittedly I tend to avoid reading walls of text).