Zompist Bboard Again

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Sep 01, 2025 3:40 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 27, 2025 9:19 am Speaking of [a], I noticed that I have two different vowel qualities in I'll [a̟(ː)ɯ̯] (an unrounded open front vowel) and doll [d̥a(ː)ɯ̯] (an unrounded open central vowel) even though I typically transcribe them with the same vowel.

I'll and I'm are both distinctive in AusEng too. Cannonically they both have [ɑˑe̯] (PRICE), which surfaces in I'm in slow speech, but they both tend towards more innovative pronunciations. Unlike other PRICE + /l/ rhymes, I'll is always monosyllabic (outside of very exaggerated emphasis), and both words tend to round the nucleus, lose the offglide, and shorten the nucleus; so I'm is [ɑˑe̯m] ~ [ɒˑe̯m] ~ [ɒːm] ~ [ɒm] and I'll is [ɑˑe̯ɫʷ] ~ [ɑːɫʷ] ~ [ɒːɫʷ] ~ [ɒɫʷ] (plus optional coda vocalisation). All of these things can happen to other instances of PRICE, but these two words are always several steps ahead in a given register.

In the dialect here there is a regular but stress-and-register-dependent sound change where PRICE (which in this context is always unraised) becomes [a̟(ː)] instead of the usual [ă̟ĕ̯]~[a̟e̯] before /oʊ u w l/ (and I suspect it would also apply before /ʊ/, but I can't think of case where this sequence occurs off the top of my head), including across word boundaries such as in some common collocations such as I was and I don't (when the /d/ is elided). In careful speech, though, [ă̟ĕ̯]~[a̟e̯] is retained for PRICE in such positions.

Found this in a Tongan grammar from 1953. In a refreshing twist on the "let's explain the phonology as a list of letters followed by pronunciations in a dead prestige dialect of English*" strategy, the author has flattened the vowel triangle into a spectrum. It's still requires no linguistic knowledge on the reader's part, but actually gives some spatial grounding to the pronunciations.

* Seriously, if I encounter one more document that starts with "The Ektarian A is similar to a southwest Hounslow A, but less coruscating and more reminiscent of a fall evening," I am going to throw a lamp.

Yes, phonology is a rather recent concept in grammar writing - even as late as in the 1970s, many grammars made do with a pronunciation guide (and in conlanging, it is an even later innovation).

Glass Half Baked wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 7:01 am Found this in a Tongan grammar from 1953. In a refreshing twist on the "let's explain the phonology as a list of letters followed by pronunciations in a dead prestige dialect of English*" strategy, the author has flattened the vowel triangle into a spectrum. It's still requires no linguistic knowledge on the reader's part, but actually gives some spatial grounding to the pronunciations.

* Seriously, if I encounter one more document that starts with "The Ektarian A is similar to a southwest Hounslow A, but less coruscating and more reminiscent of a fall evening," I am going to throw a lamp.

That does make me wonder what pronunciations of end, and, odd, and obey the writer had in mind.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:33 am That does make me wonder what pronunciations of end, and, odd, and obey the writer had in mind.

Looks intermediate between RP (obey) and SSBE (end, odd) to me. Nothing particularly odd¹ about it

¹ Pun intended

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:47 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:33 am That does make me wonder what pronunciations of end, and, odd, and obey the writer had in mind.

Looks intermediate between RP (obey) and SSBE (end, odd) to me. Nothing particularly odd¹ about it

¹ Pun intended

The reason why I ask is that in conservative RP DRESS is closer than in modern SSBE or GA, in conservative RP and GA TRAP is closer than in modern SSBE, in GA PALM and LOT are merged in most cases while in conservative RP LOT is more open than in modern SSBE, and in GA GOAT is often a monophthong (even if it is conventionally transcribed as a diphthong) while in both conservative RP and modern SSBE GOAT is a diphthong with a center starting point.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 11:12 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:47 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:33 am That does make me wonder what pronunciations of end, and, odd, and obey the writer had in mind.

Looks intermediate between RP (obey) and SSBE (end, odd) to me. Nothing particularly odd¹ about it

¹ Pun intended

The reason why I ask is that in conservative RP DRESS is closer than in modern SSBE or GA, in conservative RP and GA TRAP is closer than in modern SSBE, in GA PALM and LOT are merged in most cases while in conservative RP LOT is more open than in modern SSBE, and in GA GOAT is often a monophthong (even if it is conventionally transcribed as a diphthong) while in both conservative RP and modern SSBE GOAT is a diphthong with a center starting point.

I'm pretty sure DRESS lowered before TRAP, so that there was a period of RP where they were quite close together, which fits with the image.

As for GOAT, conservative RP had an [o] allophone in some unstressed syllables, and I think obey would have been an example of that (the one I remember is November, which is a similar environment) and indeed that would explain the otherwise curious choice of a disyllabic example word.

Another monkey-wrench: even RP might be too dirty for the sort of person writing about polynesian languages a lifetime ago. It's entirely possible the author (Churchward, in case anyone's interested) meant Platonic ideals of these vowels: ɛ, æ, ɔ, o, regardless of whether anyone pronounced them that way. Linguists in those days were constantly expecting their readers to engage with the text through the medium of an invented ahistorical English, a conlang we might call "Bookese." For example, second person singular forms are often glossed as "thou _est," even though the rest of the text is full of features that post date the loss of thou in ordinary speech.

My point is, you're trying to do anthropology on real world dialects when you should be studying the rhetorical man-traps academics used to build for fun.

Glass Half Baked wrote: ↑Fri Sep 12, 2025 6:31 amFor example, second person singular forms are often glossed as "thou _est," even though the rest of the text is full of features that post date the loss of thou in ordinary speech.

To be fair this is easier than writing "you are (singular)" vs. "you are (plural)", especially when people were very familiar with KJV English.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 11:12 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:47 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:33 am That does make me wonder what pronunciations of end, and, odd, and obey the writer had in mind.

Looks intermediate between RP (obey) and SSBE (end, odd) to me. Nothing particularly odd¹ about it

¹ Pun intended

The reason why I ask is that in conservative RP DRESS is closer than in modern SSBE or GA, in conservative RP and GA TRAP is closer than in modern SSBE, in GA PALM and LOT are merged in most cases while in conservative RP LOT is more open than in modern SSBE, and in GA GOAT is often a monophthong (even if it is conventionally transcribed as a diphthong) while in both conservative RP and modern SSBE GOAT is a diphthong with a center starting point.

I understood some of those words, but given the context, can <e> of <end> stand for anything other than [ɛ]? [ɪ] is presumably already covered, so no pin-pen merger.

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Sep 12, 2025 4:12 pm The reason why I ask is that in conservative RP DRESS is closer than in modern SSBE or GA, in conservative RP and GA TRAP is closer than in modern SSBE, in GA PALM and LOT are merged in most cases while in conservative RP LOT is more open than in modern SSBE, and in GA GOAT is often a monophthong (even if it is conventionally transcribed as a diphthong) while in both conservative RP and modern SSBE GOAT is a diphthong with a center starting point.

I understood some of those words, but given the context, can <e> of <end> stand for anything other than [ɛ]? [ɪ] is presumably already covered, so no pin-pen merger.
[/quote]

In AusE, and allegedly in conservative RP, DRESS is/was [e], and in NZE DRESS is [ɪ] but does not merge with KIT as KIT is centralized and lowered to [ə]. For myself, DRESS when not before /d/ or being spoken carefully is [ɜ(ː)] (note that it is not pronounced the same as SSBE NURSE, as it is still a bit front of center in many cases, and it has no rounding or sulcalization, whereas SSBE NURSE is often a bit sulcalized).

Ran into two amusingly bad translations from Mandarin. First:



It's harder to say what it should be. The text is 惊爆商品 jīngbào shāngpǐn. Translations of jīngbào include surprising, startling, explosive, unexpected. I suspect it's something like "sensational goods".

The second is from this interesting article on Chinese cookbooks. There's a dish called 口水鸡 kǒushuǐ jī . Now 口水, literally "mouth-water", means "saliva", so some book translated this as "Saliva Chicken". This is a beautiful example of a terrible literal translation. The better translation is "Mouth-watering Chicken".

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Sep 12, 2025 11:43 pmThe better translation is "Mouth-watering Chicken".

Which appears in the image at the top, together with a bunch of bad transaltions, so apperently that is still deemed bad as well?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 13, 2025 4:24 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Sep 12, 2025 11:43 pmThe better translation is "Mouth-watering Chicken".

Which appears in the image at the top, together with a bunch of bad transaltions, so apperently that is still deemed bad as well?

The illustrator is not the author, and I don't see that the illo is intended to represent bad translations. Most of the items are simply mentioned at some point in the article.

I've seen the name "saliva chicken" in multiple places on the Interwebs from a cursory googling.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Sep 12, 2025 11:43 pm It's harder to say what it should be. The text is 惊爆商品 jīngbào shāngpǐn. Translations of jīngbào include surprising, startling, explosive, unexpected. I suspect it's something like "sensational goods".

Reminds me of the "novelties" section in American grocery stores (although they refer to different things (also, have *any* of you ever referred to random frozen desserts as novelties??))

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Aug 16, 2025 5:04 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 16, 2025 12:56 am Does Standard Swedish kyrka reflect direct influence from Byzantine Greek, since ON had kirkja (note the unrounded vowel), itself a loan from OE cirice (Late PWGmc *kirikā), but Byzantine Greek had κυριακόν (δόμα)?

I doubt that; it rather looks like a tendency to darken front vowels near retroflexes such as /r/. In this part of Germany, the word Kirche is pronounced something like [kɨɐçə].

I was taught in junior high that kyrka is a loan word from Greek kyriakon. I can't tell how accurate this is though.

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 5:25 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Aug 16, 2025 5:04 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 16, 2025 12:56 am Does Standard Swedish kyrka reflect direct influence from Byzantine Greek, since ON had kirkja (note the unrounded vowel), itself a loan from OE cirice (Late PWGmc *kirikā), but Byzantine Greek had κυριακόν (δόμα)?

I doubt that; it rather looks like a tendency to darken front vowels near retroflexes such as /r/. In this part of Germany, the word Kirche is pronounced something like [kɨɐçə].

I was taught in junior high that kyrka is a loan word from Greek kyriakon. I can't tell how accurate this is though.

The word is ultimately from that source, but I have no idea whether it is a direct loan or not.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:26 am

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 5:25 amI was taught in junior high that kyrka is a loan word from Greek kyriakon. I can't tell how accurate this is though.

The word is ultimately from that source, but I have no idea whether it is a direct loan or not.

Often the answer is just a Google away...

Google AI wrote:The Swedish word kyrka, meaning "church," comes from Old Norse kirkja, which in turn derives from Old English cirice and Late Proto-West Germanic kirikā. This Germanic root word was borrowed from the Byzantine Greek kuriakón (dóma), meaning "Lord's (house)," ultimately from the Ancient Greek kúrios, meaning "lord".

JAL

jal wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:43 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:26 am

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 5:25 amI was taught in junior high that kyrka is a loan word from Greek kyriakon. I can't tell how accurate this is though.

The word is ultimately from that source, but I have no idea whether it is a direct loan or not.

Often the answer is just a Google away...

Google AI wrote:The Swedish word kyrka, meaning "church," comes from Old Norse kirkja, which in turn derives from Old English cirice and Late Proto-West Germanic kirikā. This Germanic root word was borrowed from the Byzantine Greek kuriakón (dóma), meaning "Lord's (house)," ultimately from the Ancient Greek kúrios, meaning "lord".

The question is why the rounded vowel in Swedish kyrka and the alternate ON form kyrkja? As mentioned there is also an alternate OE form cyrice which this may have been borrowed from. But whence cyrice if cirice came from PWGmc *kirikā? That leads me to thinking that this may have been under the influence of the Byzantine Greek form's use of <ῡ> rather than its actual pronunciation in Byzantine Greek.