Zompist Bboard Again

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:06 amI'd always pronounced it with [æ] as in "status".

At least one linguist doesn't do so :D. So I expect we were wrong :D.


JAL

I think all words ending in stressed -ative (even if considered secondary stress) use the FACE vowel, as in math class "commutative" etc although those who grow up with an accent where those words are pronounced with schwa may not have that background to base their intuition on.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:42 pm I think all words ending in stressed -ative (even if considered secondary stress) use the FACE vowel, as in math class "commutative" etc although those who grow up with an accent where those words are pronounced with schwa may not have that background to base their intuition on.

I've always stressed commut/ə/tive on the second syllable.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:32 am
edit: also, Im not sure February ever had the sequence /rj/ ... it seems that what happened is a substitution of /j/ for /r/, not a shift from /rj/ > /j/.

Walker's 1793 Critical Pronouncing Dictionary gives /ˈfɛbrjuːæriː/ without comment. While Walker sometimes gives pronunciations without basis in usage, I don't think this is one of them (I believe Walker's rival Sheridan has /rj/ here too).

Given that speakers did actually have /rj/ in February, pronunciations of the "Febuary" type start to look less like a random dissimilatory change of /r/ to /j/ and more like the aforementioned colloquial dissimilatory loss of unstressed /r/ as seen in surprise, deteriorate etc. This phenomenon is first attested in Middle English (e.g. in capenter for carpenter /-ˈteːr/).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:10 pm

Pabappa wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:42 pm I think all words ending in stressed -ative (even if considered secondary stress) use the FACE vowel, as in math class "commutative" etc although those who grow up with an accent where those words are pronounced with schwa may not have that background to base their intuition on.

I've always stressed commut/ə/tive on the second syllable.

Aside from the pronunciations that people have mentioned, the OED gives a pronunciation with initial stress but a reduced vowel in the penultimate syllable (/ˈkɒmjətətɪv/), which seems very odd to me, given English's aversion to sequences of three reduced vowels.

I find that one with the two consecutive schwas feels very odd to pronounce, but I could imagine it in certain British varieties. I've always pronounced it with a fairy iambic pattern, /kə'mjuː.tə.tɪv/ : [kʰə'mjʊw.də.dɪv].

Sol717 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:35 am the aforementioned colloquial dissimilatory loss of unstressed /r/ as seen in ... deteriorate

?

/dɨtijərejt/?

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:41 pm

Sol717 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:35 am the aforementioned colloquial dissimilatory loss of unstressed /r/ as seen in ... deteriorate

?

/dɨtijərejt/?

/dɨ.tir.i.ejt/, I believe.

LingEarth wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:22 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:41 pm

Sol717 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:35 am the aforementioned colloquial dissimilatory loss of unstressed /r/ as seen in ... deteriorate

?

/dɨtijərejt/?

/dɨ.tir.i.ejt/, I believe.

You're correct there. I'd know, as I personally employ that kind of pronunciation; deteriorate is usually /dɘˈtiə̯ɻi.æe̯t/ for me.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:06 am I'd always pronounced it with [æ] as in "status".

Well I've always pronounced it as [ɛj] as in "status"

(i.e. [stɛjtəs], [stɛjtɪv])

I am the only Polish speaker who often pronounces [a] as a schwa?

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:27 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:06 am I'd always pronounced it with [æ] as in "status".

Well I've always pronounced it as [ɛj] as in "status"

(i.e. [stɛjtəs], [stɛjtɪv])

I imagine lots of people do.

pollard .... it's a verb, so I assumed it would have final stress. But in fact it's initial, as it contains the suffix -ard.

Beethoven
from /bi.DoU.vIn/ to /beDovIn

Nachtswalbe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:21 am Beethoven
from /bi.DoU.vIn/ to /beDovIn

The pronunciation I've always known is [ˈb̥e̞ˌtʰo̞ːvɘ̃(ː)n]* - note the aspirated [tʰ].

* I have decided I should mark initial lenis obstruents as "voiceless lenis" as they are generally voiceless in isolation but easily become voiced between vowels, nasals, or like.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:15 pmDetritus: I still mentally read it as ['dɛtɹɪtʊs] half the time, despite being aware it ought to be something more like [dɪ'tɹaitʊs].

My flatmate just used the /'dɛtɹɪtəs/ pronunciation yesterday and I had to bite my tongue not to correct him.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:05 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:15 pmDetritus: I still mentally read it as ['dɛtɹɪtʊs] half the time, despite being aware it ought to be something more like [dɪ'tɹaitʊs].

My flatmate just used the /'dɛtɹɪtəs/ pronunciation yesterday and I had to bite my tongue not to correct him.

For the longest time I simply did not know how to pronounce this word, but now I pronounce it as [d̥ɘˈtʃʰɻʁəe̯ˌtʰʌs] (there should be a tie bar between [ɻʁ] but the converter I'm using is not allowing me to insert it).

I was informed by a professor of mine that the ws found in British toponyms ending in -wich (Norwich, Greenwich, etc.) are supposed to be silent, and insists upon the 'correct' pronunciation of such words in his class.

do_shahbaz wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:41 am I was informed by a professor of mine that the ws found in British toponyms ending in -wich (Norwich, Greenwich, etc.) are supposed to be silent, and insists upon the 'correct' pronunciation of such words in his class.

I have [ˈɡ̥ʁˤɜ̃ːɾ̃ɘʔtʃ] for Greenwich, but I have never heard anyone say or seen anyone write down the pronunciation of Norwich, so I myself did not have a clue that Norwich was not supposed to be pronounced with a [w].

I've encountered both "Norwich" and "Welwyn" as ['nɔ.ɹɪt͡ʃ] and ['wɛ.lɪ̃n], also the surname "Benwick" is ['bɛ.nɪk̚].

Of course, the average North American is likely to not be familiar with the details of the pronunciation of British placenames and names. Heck, probably the only reason I know how to "properly" pronounce Greenwich is because of Greenwich Mean Time.