Zompist Bboard Again

Flourish and nourish both have the NURSE vowel for me.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:18 pm Flourish and nourish both have the NURSE vowel for me.

... which is presumably the expected development in non-eastern AmE?

I have STRUT in both and am not aware of any other pronunciation in BrE.

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:54 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:18 pm Flourish and nourish both have the NURSE vowel for me.

... which is presumably the expected development in non-eastern AmE?

I have STRUT in both and am not aware of any other pronunciation in BrE.

Well, of course a lot of BrE has FOOT in those words (and all STRUT) words. But otherwise, yes.

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:54 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:18 pm Flourish and nourish both have the NURSE vowel for me.

... which is presumably the expected development in non-eastern AmE?

Probably thanks to the hurry-furry merger.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:58 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:54 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:18 pm Flourish and nourish both have the NURSE vowel for me.

... which is presumably the expected development in non-eastern AmE?

Probably thanks to the hurry-furry merger.

yes, intervocalic semivowels are consistently syllabified as codas - cf. CHOICE in "lawyer"

How do you pronounce tsunami? I pronounce it much closer to its native language, as [tsunami].

Akangka wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:59 amHow do you pronounce tsunami? I pronounce it much closer to its native language, as [tsunami].

[ˌsjʉʊ̯ˈneəmi]

JK. Like most USAmericans, I have /suˈnɑmi/. Initial /ts/ sounds affected to me in nativised English words.

Talking about initial ts-, I kind of like the inconsistency of Vancouver English:

tsunami /suˈnæmi/ (yes, /æ/, as Canadians are wont to do when dealing with foreign "a")
Tsleil-Waututh /ˈsleɪ wɑˈtuθ/ (a local indigenous nation, commonly heard in land acknowledgements at events)
tzaziki /təˈziki/ (a commonly-used sauce in "mediterranean" i.e. Greek/Arabic/Iranian fast food places, also found at Subway)
Tsawassen /təˈwɑsn/ (an important area of a suburb south of Vancouver because of its dock where ships leave to Victoria, BC)

Interestingly, although the Tsleil-Waututh's website recommends the pronunciation "Slay-wah-tuth" (presumably /ˈsleɪ wɑˈtuθ/), in a short 9-minute video often shown about them at museums/etc. the pronunciation /təsˈleɪ wɑˈtuθ/ can be heard.

Ser wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:49 amtzaziki /təˈziki/ (a commonly-used sauce in "mediterranean" i.e. Greek/Arabic/Iranian fast food places, also found at Subway)

It's even more inconsistent than you think; the spelling is tzatziki (which I pronounce with two /dz/ ever since discovering that this is a Hellenisation of Turkish cacık).

Oh, right.

Wiktionary reports the "UK" pronunciations /tsæˈtsɪ.kɪ/, /zæˈtsɪ.kɪ/, /sæˈtsɪ.kɪ/ too, with a stressed short /ɪ/.

Some years ago I tried to find out where Greek /ts/ came from and didnt really learn much. Much, and perhaps most, of the /ts/ in modern Greek words is from Turkish, yes, .... and you see this also in names. For example, I think the surname Tsetsekas is from Turkish, since I saw a similar Turkish surname once (maybe Çeçek?) There is apparently a conditional shift of /l/ > /ts/ in Tsakonian (earlier called Laconian), and you see this a lot in names too. There is one example I stumbled across where /nth/ > /ts/ and I think there might be more.

Anyway, I grew up hearing names like Tsoukalas and Tsetsekas pronounced with initial /ts/ and never had a problem with them, or with words like tsunami. My mother says /'ti.tsi/ for tsetse, but this isnt a common word and many people who pronounce it may just be imitating other people. Similarly, the name Tsongas was always /'sOn.gəs/ for me, but thats just because he was a well-known politician and his name was on the TV a lot.

Ive always said /'dʒai.ro/ for gyro, just because it doesnt really feel like a Greek word to me, since we already have the words "gyro" and "gyre" fairly well established in English. But thats just me .... I wouldnt ever "correct" someone who pronounced it /'ji.ro/, nor insist that I was right if they first corrected me.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:14 pmSome years ago I tried to find out where Greek /ts/ came from and didnt really learn much. Much, and perhaps most, of the /ts/ in modern Greek words is from Turkish, yes, .... and you see this also in names.

There are a lot of recent Italian borrowings, too. E.g.:

zappa "hoe" > τσάπα
pasticcio "hodegpodge" > παστίτσιο
valigia "valise" > βαλίτσα
calza "sock" > κάλτσα
pagliaccio "clown" > παλιάτσος

I know some Greek surnames (particularly in the Islands) are derived from Romance.

I pronounce tsunami as [tʲʰsʲʉ̃ːˈnãːmi(ː)], corresponding to /tsuˈnami/, but most people in southern Wisconsin tend to have [sʲʉ̃ːˈnãːmi(ː)], corresponding to /suˈnami/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:06 pm I pronounce tsunami as [tʲʰsʲʉ̃ːˈnãːmi(ː)], corresponding to /tsuˈnami/, but most people in southern Wisconsin tend to have [sʲʉ̃ːˈnãːmi(ː)], corresponding to /suˈnami/.

Do you really aspirate your /t/ in this position? It's really hard for me.

ˌsuwˈnɑmɨ, ˌsætˈsijkɨ

Akangka wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:12 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:06 pm I pronounce tsunami as [tʲʰsʲʉ̃ːˈnãːmi(ː)], corresponding to /tsuˈnami/, but most people in southern Wisconsin tend to have [sʲʉ̃ːˈnãːmi(ː)], corresponding to /suˈnami/.

Do you really aspirate your /t/ in this position? It's really hard for me.

To [tʲsʲʉ̃ːˈnãːmi(ː)] would be /dzuˈnami/.

To me tzatziki is [tʰsɛʔtˈsiki(ː)], i.e. /tsætˈsiki/

I think for tzatziki I have [t͡sʰəˈd͡zi.ki].

I have initial /ts/ in tsunami: /tsuːˈnɑːmɪ/.

As for tzatziki I say /tsaˈtsiːkɪ/, which is basically a spelling pronunciation, but AIUI it actually has /dz/ in Greek, as a borrowing of Turkish /dʒ/. I remember discussing either this or another word with <τζ> with a Greek colleague, and the way he pronounced the affricate sounded pretty close to an English /dʒ/, Greek being known for its sibilants sounding somewhere between "sibilant" and "shibilant". But I think that if I pronounced it with two /dʒ/s when speaking English people wouldn't know what I was talking about.

[tsuˈnɑː.mi]
[tsäˈtsi.ki]

I can't actually tell what my realisation of the cot-caught vowel is. Length of the vowel is not phonemic for me.