Zompist Bboard Again

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2026 4:46 pm

EDIT: no, you can say ‘it’s because …’ but not, say, *‘it’s and …’. Perhaps it’s more comparable to other adverbial-clause introducers like ‘after’ or ‘though’, as you implied.

There's a kind of unmapped wasteland in between adverbs, conjunctions, and prepositions; probably we need better terms.

Quite. Relatedly, you argued once that there’s really a continuum of word classes in that space; I disagreed at the time but have since come around to that point of view.

(Of course, ‘we need better terms’ applies to a lot of things in linguistics…)

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2026 4:46 pm I'm not sure offhand why your "it's and..." doesn't work. More precisely, I'm not surprised at that, but I'd have to think about why some conjunctions (?) allow it and some don't.

Well, the contraction certainly has something to do with it: you can say of something that ‘it is and it isn’t’. Of course, that’s no longer quite comparable: there the emphasis must be on the verb, whereas with ‘it’s because …’ it’s somewhere in the second clause.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 6:12 pm

lëtzeshark wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:25 pm Miscellany: I'm visiting Portugal for work, and what's quite marked during my stay is how rather... different European Portuguese sounds to how it's written.

Wait till you hear Brazilian... :)

I've worked with some Brazilians, and they do have some "pecularities". I remember one saying something like "hock in heeoo", and it took me a bit to realize that it was "Rock in Rio". (But also with European Portuguese, a coworker was saying [ʀamɐ̃] for Raman spectroscopy, and it took me a minute or two to realize what she was referring to.) It's a fun case of "textbook Portuguese" being very different from how people actually speak, though I'm sure if I got into the language more, I'd find even more peculiarities...

lëtzeshark wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 3:47 am

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 6:12 pm Wait till you hear Brazilian...

I've worked with some Brazilians, and they do have some "pecularities". I remember one saying something like "hock in heeoo", and it took me a bit to realize that it was "Rock in Rio". (But also with European Portuguese, a coworker was saying [ʀamɐ̃] for Raman spectroscopy, and it took me a minute or two to realize what she was referring to.) It's a fun case of "textbook Portuguese" being very different from how people actually speak, though I'm sure if I got into the language more, I'd find even more peculiarities...

A couple of my favorites. These are foreign words. Select to see the spelling.

[vadʒinex] Wagner
[oliwudʒi] Hollywood

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 4:55 am[oliwudʒi] Hollywood

That's Brazillian right? A European Portuguese speaker would not pass on the opportunity to elide a final vowel.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 6:20 am

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 4:55 am[oliwudʒi] Hollywood

That's Brazillian right? A European Portuguese speaker would not pass on the opportunity to elide a final vowel.

I assume so, with the affrication of /d/.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 4:55 am [vadʒinex] Wagner

For a second I thought that was supposed to be a female intimate product...

jal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 6:20 am

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 4:55 am[oliwudʒi] Hollywood

That's Brazillian right? A European Portuguese speaker would not pass on the opportunity to elide a final vowel.

Yes, it's Brazilian. Which means that final vowel is added.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 4:55 am A couple of my favorites. These are foreign words. Select to see the spelling.

[vadʒinex] Wagner
[oliwudʒi] Hollywood

I don't know whether to be amused or appalled. Maybe a bit of both. :P

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 7:56 am

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2026 4:55 am [vadʒinex] Wagner

For a second I thought that was supposed to be a female intimate product...

I'm reminded now of a time when a girl in my class named Gina got mail addressed to her from a Catholic university inviting her to apply. Her name was miswritten in quite an unfortunate way. :P

Today I learned that the name "Axel" derives from "Absalom"

Arzena wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2026 1:01 pm Today I learned that the name "Axel" derives from "Absalom"

Huh. Didn't see that coming. Thank you for the information.

Arzena wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2026 1:01 pm Today I learned that the name "Axel" derives from "Absalom"

That I did not know, and am quite surprised by.

bradrn wrote:(As for how I’d analyse it, my first thought is that it seems to behave the same way as other sentential conjunctions like ‘and’ and ‘but’ — despite what the traditional grammarians say, those can begin a sentence too. Not 100% sure though.)

Typically, "and" would be called a coordinating conjunction, and "because" would be called a subordinating conjunction. This is also what spaCy (a natural language processing library in Python) does.

bradrn wrote:At least in English, ‘adverb’ is traditionally a catch-all category in which to dump any word which doesn’t obviously fit in any of the other word classes. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything more than that.]

This is true.

zompist wrote:"After" is normally a preposition ("after noon"), but can take an S instead "after he left". "Though" seems like a clear conjunction.

"after" (and "before") can be a preposition or a conjunction.
- Good -- We went to a restaurant after the concert.
- Good -- We went to a restaurant after the concert was over.

But "during" can be only a preposition, and "while" can be only a conjunction.
- Good -- I was bored during the concert.
- Bad -- I was bored during the concert was going on.
- Bad -- I was bored while the concert.
- Good -- I was bored while the concert was going on.

"though, even though, although" are conjunctions. The prepositional equivalent is "despite".
- Good -- Even though he is intelligent, he failed the exam.
- Bad -- Even though his intelligence, he failed the exam.
- Bad -- Despite he is intelligent, he failed the exam.
- Good -- Despite his intelligence, he failed the exam.

Similarly, "because" contrasts with "because of" and "due to".
- Good -- Because he is intelligent, he passed the exam.
- Bad -- Because his intelligence, he passed the exam.
- Bad -- Because of he is intelligent, he passed the exam.
- Good -- Because of his intelligence, he passed the exam.
- Bad -- Due to he is intelligent, he passed the exam.
- Good -- Due to his intelligence, he passed the exam.

As a sidenote, there's also "due to the fact that", which is just a very clunky way of saying "because", which is why it's a pet peeve of mine.
- Good -- Due to the fact that he is intelligent, he passed the exam.
- Bad -- Due to the fact that his intelligence, he passed the exam.

How would you translate "small pitch" into Irish? That is, with "pitch" as in "playing field for a sport". My very limited online research made me think it should be something like páirc beag, but I know nothing about the Irish language, so perhaps someone who does know something about it could correct me?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 12:54 pm How would you translate "small pitch" into Irish? That is, with "pitch" as in "playing field for a sport". My very limited online research made me think it should be something like páirc beag, but I know nothing about the Irish language, so perhaps someone who does know something about it could correct me?

Seeing the word "pitch" makes me wonder what other English words have multiple very different meanings.

"pitch" can mean: (1) resin, (2) throwing a ball, (3) (in the UK) the field that one plays on while playing with [edit: not necessarily throwing] a ball, and (4) the frequency of a sound.
"mortar" is another good one: (1) glue to hold bricks together, (2) a bowl that one grinds stuff in with a pestle, (3) and a small artillery piece.

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 7:55 pm
"mortar" is another good one: (1) glue to hold bricks together, (2) a bowl that one grinds stuff in with a pestle, (3) and a small artillery piece.

Mortar used to be prepared in a grinding bowl, and the shapes of some early artillery pieces reminded people of the shapes of grinding bowls?

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 7:55 pm "pitch" can mean: (1) resin, (2) throwing a ball, (3) (in the UK) the field that one plays on while throwing a ball, and (4) the frequency of a sound.

don't forget about a sales pitch, which can lack the "sales," or about the pitchers at restaurants which, at least in my workplace, are commonly referred to as just "pitches."

/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/ wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 9:33 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 7:55 pm "pitch" can mean: (1) resin, (2) throwing a ball, (3) (in the UK) the field that one plays on while throwing a ball, and (4) the frequency of a sound.

don't forget about a sales pitch, which can lack the "sales," or about the pitchers at restaurants which, at least in my workplace, are commonly referred to as just "pitches."

(1) Yes, but a "(sales) pitch" still sounds like a metaphor of meaning #2.
(2) I've never heard "pitcher" shortened to "pitch". Neat!

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 12:54 pm How would you translate "small pitch" into Irish? That is, with "pitch" as in "playing field for a sport". My very limited online research made me think it should be something like páirc beag, but I know nothing about the Irish language, so perhaps someone who does know something about it could correct me?

páirc is feminine, so I think it should be páirc bheag

anteallach wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 12:01 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 12:54 pm How would you translate "small pitch" into Irish? That is, with "pitch" as in "playing field for a sport". My very limited online research made me think it should be something like páirc beag, but I know nothing about the Irish language, so perhaps someone who does know something about it could correct me?

páirc is feminine, so I think it should be páirc bheag

Oh, thank you. Doh!

/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/ wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 9:33 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2026 7:55 pm"pitch" can mean: (1) resin, (2) throwing a ball, (3) (in the UK) the field that one plays on while throwing a ball, and (4) the frequency of a sound.

don't forget about a sales pitch, which can lack the "sales," or about the pitchers at restaurants which, at least in my workplace, are commonly referred to as just "pitches."

Or the pitch in terms of pitch, yaw, and roll, or in terms of setting up a tent.