Zompist Bboard Again

For me, it's because I have a fondness for old books and period dramas.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:11 am I've encountered both "Norwich" and "Welwyn" as ['nɔ.ɹɪt͡ʃ] and ['wɛ.lɪ̃n], also the surname "Benwick" is ['bɛ.nɪk̚].

I know they're supposed to be a queer lot in the city, but the only significant pronunciation I've heard for it is /nɒ.rɪd͡ʒ/. I'm still not sure whether one is allowed to sound the 'h' in Harwich /ˈæ.rɪd͡ʒ/. Oddly enouɡh, the <w> is sounded in Lerwick.

About final /ɪtʃ/ versus /ɪdʒ/ for final <ich>, I personally have the former by default but have the latter in sand/wɪdʒ/ (note that /dʒ/ is normally [tʃ] for me except when palatalized to [tɕ]).

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:45 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:11 am I've encountered both "Norwich" and "Welwyn" as ['nɔ.ɹɪt͡ʃ] and ['wɛ.lɪ̃n], also the surname "Benwick" is ['bɛ.nɪk̚].

I know they're supposed to be a queer lot in the city, but the only significant pronunciation I've heard for it is /nɒ.rɪd͡ʒ/. I'm still not sure whether one is allowed to sound the 'h' in Harwich /ˈæ.rɪd͡ʒ/. Oddly enouɡh, the <w> is sounded in Lerwick.

Mine's also filtered through General American, which tends not to have historical /ɒr/ > [ɒɹ~ɑɹ] preconsonantally.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:46 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:45 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:11 am I've encountered both "Norwich" and "Welwyn" as ['nɔ.ɹɪt͡ʃ] and ['wɛ.lɪ̃n], also the surname "Benwick" is ['bɛ.nɪk̚].

I know they're supposed to be a queer lot in the city, but the only significant pronunciation I've heard for it is /nɒ.rɪd͡ʒ/. I'm still not sure whether one is allowed to sound the 'h' in Harwich /ˈæ.rɪd͡ʒ/. Oddly enouɡh, the <w> is sounded in Lerwick.

Mine's also filtered through General American, which tends not to have historical /ɒr/ > [ɒɹ~ɑɹ] preconsonantally.

It should also be noted that historical /ɒr/ normally maps to /ɔr/ in GA except in a small set of words such as tomorrow, sorry and sorrow where it maps to /ɑr/ (but East Coast dialects often also have /ɑr/ for it in words such as Florida, horrible, horror, and orange).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:14 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:46 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:45 pm
I know they're supposed to be a queer lot in the city, but the only significant pronunciation I've heard for it is /nɒ.rɪd͡ʒ/. I'm still not sure whether one is allowed to sound the 'h' in Harwich /ˈæ.rɪd͡ʒ/. Oddly enouɡh, the <w> is sounded in Lerwick.

Mine's also filtered through General American, which tends not to have historical /ɒr/ > [ɒɹ~ɑɹ] preconsonantally.

It should also be noted that historical /ɒr/ normally maps to /ɔr/ in GA except in a small set of words such as tomorrow, sorry and sorrow where it maps to /ɑr/...

I have all these as described.

(but East Coast dialects often also have /ɑr/ for it in words such as Florida, horrible, horror, and orange).

This strikes me as a rather old-fashioned way of pronouncing things, one I've rarely encountered.

OMG! I just learned that "usurp" doesn't start with "us"


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:13 am OMG! I just learned that "usurp" doesn't start with "us"

Usurpation starts with you!

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:19 amUsurpation starts with you!

JAL

<album> as /'(ʔ)æl.bləm/.

.... still doesn't sound right to me without two /l/s. Sigh.

Kinda remind me of /j/ and /w/ copying across syllables in Avestan.

2+3 Clusivity wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:57 pm <album> as /'(ʔ)æl.bləm/.

.... still doesn't sound right to me without two /l/s. Sigh.

Kinda remind me of /j/ and /w/ copying across syllables in Avestan.

I have a similar thing - "only" becomes "olnly."

axolotl wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:29 pm I have a similar thing - "only" becomes "olnly."

The only colloquial variant of that word I’m familiar with is ony /ˈʌʊni/.

axolotl wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:29 pm

2+3 Clusivity wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:57 pm <album> as /'(ʔ)æl.bləm/.

.... still doesn't sound right to me without two /l/s. Sigh.

Kinda remind me of /j/ and /w/ copying across syllables in Avestan.

I have a similar thing - "only" becomes "olnly."

In the midwest of the USA, it is common to hear "both" pronounced as "bolth."

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:46 pm

axolotl wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:29 pmI have a similar thing - "only" becomes "olnly."

In the midwest of the USA, it is common to hear "both" pronounced as "bolth."

Is that really an [l] in there, or is it just diphthongation of /o/ into /ou/, which may sound similar to /o/ + very dark /l/?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:50 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:46 pm

axolotl wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:29 pmI have a similar thing - "only" becomes "olnly."

In the midwest of the USA, it is common to hear "both" pronounced as "bolth."

Is that really an [l] in there, or is it just diphthongation of /o/ into /ou/, which may sound similar to /o/ + very dark /l/?


JAL

Hah, oh no my friend. It's a full-on velarized L, as if it were there the whole time. Not every speaker has it, but it's common enough in WI and MN.

My theory is that this is somehow connected to the idiots who say "omnicron variant." Something deep in the American psyche just can't leave /o/ alone.

EDIT: OK, apparently it's a contest, or something? I've heard this pronunciation from one Milwaukean and a handful of people from the Twin Cities. Since that represents maybe 10% of all the people I know from that region, I figured it was a pretty common feature. I guess I'm cancelled now. Farewell, everyone. It's been real. I'll tell Lindsay Ellis and Bill Cosby y'all said hi,

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:31 pm

jal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:50 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:46 pmIn the midwest of the USA, it is common to hear "both" pronounced as "bolth."

Is that really an [l] in there, or is it just diphthongation of /o/ into /ou/, which may sound similar to /o/ + very dark /l/?


JAL

Hah, oh no my friend. It's a full-on velarized L, as if it were there the whole time. Not every speaker has it, but it's common enough in WI and MN.

My theory is that this is somehow connected to the idiots who say "omnicron variant." Something deep in the American psyche just can't leave /o/ alone.

I don't hear it here in southeastern Wisconsin, but even if it were here it'd be realized as [b̥o̞ʊ̯θ] thanks to l-vocalization. (Note that while /oʊ/ not adjacent to a coronal (where then it is centralized, especially if unstressed) is normally realized as [o̞] here, stressed final /oʊ/ is frequently realized as [o̞ʊ̯] or even [o̞w] here).

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:31 pm EDIT: OK, apparently it's a contest, or something? I've heard this pronunciation from one Milwaukean and a handful of people from the Twin Cities. Since that represents maybe 10% of all the people I know from that region, I figured it was a pretty common feature. I guess I'm cancelled now. Farewell, everyone. It's been real. I'll tell Lindsay Ellis and Bill Cosby y'all said hi,

It should be noted that there is a good amount of heterogeneity at least here in southeastern Wisconsin. For instance I have noticed my daughter pronounce PRICE with [ɑe̯], whereas I have always had [ae̯]~[əe̯] (note there is good reason to believe that pair actually is two separate phonemes), never having a back starting point. My mother, who grew up in Kenosha, frequently has tag hey, which is utterly absent from the variety I grew up with. Conversely, both me and my daughter frequently say [ja(ː)], which my mother has said she only learned after moving to the Milwaukee area.

Yesterday I discovered that omnipotent isn't said like just jamming 'omni' and 'potent' together.

I think I just discovered that the <e> at the end of Arthur C. Clarke's name is silent. Would never have guessed that.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:21 amI think I just discovered that the <e> at the end of Arthur C. Clarke's name is silent. Would never have guessed that.

Really? I don't think I've ever assumed otherwise (i.e. always pronounced it "Clark"). Don't know why though, I don't think I've ever heard a native speaker pronounce it. Probably because final e is almost never pronounced.


JAL