Zompist Bboard Again

Ælfwine wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:54 pm Under influence from Innu-aimun, I need the phonemes /f (v) θ (ð) (ɣ)/ to merge with their plosive equivalents in order to both eliminate them and reintroduce voiced consonants as allophones between vowels (similar to the state of affairs in Innu). While I know /θ ð/ > /t d/ is well attested, and so is /ɣ/ > /g/, how likely is /f~v/ > /p~b/)/? Is it possible, under influence from Innu, a language that lacks /f/, for it to completely merge with /p/?

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:10 am

Ælfwine wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:54 pm Under influence from Innu-aimun, I need the phonemes /f (v) θ (ð) (ɣ)/ to merge with their plosive equivalents in order to both eliminate them and reintroduce voiced consonants as allophones between vowels (similar to the state of affairs in Innu). While I know /θ ð/ > /t d/ is well attested, and so is /ɣ/ > /g/, how likely is /f~v/ > /p~b/)/? Is it possible, under influence from Innu, a language that lacks /f/, for it to completely merge with /p/?

Happened in Tok Pisin, but do you want to have as much restructuring as there is in Tok Pisin? Didn't happen in Michif.

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:39 am How do I turn this set of vowels...

Code: Select all

i iː u uː
e eː o oː
æ æː ɑ ɑː

...into this set of vowels and diphthongs

Code: Select all

i iː    u uː
    ə əː
    a aː

aj aw əj əw

Akangka wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:17 am

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:39 am How do I turn this set of vowels...

Code: Select all

i iː u uː
e eː o oː
æ æː ɑ ɑː

...into this set of vowels and diphthongs

Code: Select all

i iː    u uː
    ə əː
    a aː

aj aw əj əw

What is the consonant inventory and the phonotactics?

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:39 am How do I turn this set of vowels...

Code: Select all

i iː u uː
e eː o oː
æ æː ɑ ɑː

...into this set of vowels and diphthongs

Code: Select all

i iː    u uː
    ə əː
    a aː

aj aw əj əw

Whimemsz wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:33 am If the "substrate influence" is the result of any decent amount of language shift among original Innu speakers to Norse I think you can pretty easily get away with this. Older missionary works on Algonquian languages are constantly mentioning how the Indians are incapable of pronouncing some consonants, with /f/ usually one of the sounds given as an example. (Paul Le Jeune's list of the "letters" the Innus can't pronounce is F, L, V, X, and Z, and he gives the example of them pronouncing "Monsieur Olivier" as "Monsieur Olipier" [in the Jesuit Relations for 1634, Thwaites vol. 7].)

bradrn wrote: Wasn’t Michif quite an unusual case, with Tok Pisin’s restructuring being more usual?

(On the other hand, Ælfwine’s conlang does sound pretty similar to what happened with Michif, so your point is still valid.)

I don't think Michif necessarily applies one way or another -- you say, it's a fairly unique case -- but I don't see how Ælfwine's conlang sounds similar to what happened with Michif. At all. It just sounds like a language that reflects significant influence from another language, which is a common thing, and not what happened with Michif.

Ælfwine wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:46 pm This is a "mixed language," but it's less like the exceptional Michif and more like other mixed languages of its kind.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:36 pm

Akangka wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:09 pm I saw an Australian language where all plosives are voiced.

As I understand it that’s more of a representational convention than unilateral voicing.

Ælfwine wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:17 amI thought languages like Michif constituted fluency in both of the source languages.