Zompist Bboard Again

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2026 4:09 pm And if the lack of certain consonants is an artifact of our reconstructive methodology, we would unwittingly create a circular argument.

I think it inevitably is, because reconstructions are not phonetics. For this particular question, if you reconstruct *f, that could easily have been an [f] or an [ɸ], or one changing to the other. Or something else entirely.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2026 4:30 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2026 4:09 pm And if the lack of certain consonants is an artifact of our reconstructive methodology, we would unwittingly create a circular argument.

I think it inevitably is, because reconstructions are not phonetics. For this particular question, if you reconstruct *f, that could easily have been an [f] or an [ɸ], or one changing to the other. Or something else entirely.

While we can pretty confidently say that PIE didn't have **f, there's the off chance that PIE *w was really [w~ʋ~v] with just how frequently it turned into [ʋ] or [v] in IE daughters.

I think some of the researchers on this topic are not contrasting f with ɸ, a pointless distinction that is literally impossible to care about, but rather contrasting f with p. There's a whole range of scopes and levels of confidence at play here, as with any good crackpottery.

Does any natlang contrast between roundedness and protrusion both? Like is there a "u" that's just round and a "u" where the lips protrude?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2026 4:45 pm While we can pretty confidently say that PIE didn't have **f, there's the off chance that PIE *w was really [w~ʋ~v] with just how frequently it turned into [ʋ] or [v] in IE daughters.

The reason why PIE *y and *w are normally reconstructed as semivowels is that they correspond to *i(:) and *u(:) in ablaut series.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2026 3:12 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2026 4:45 pm While we can pretty confidently say that PIE didn't have **f, there's the off chance that PIE *w was really [w~ʋ~v] with just how frequently it turned into [ʋ] or [v] in IE daughters.

The reason why PIE *y and *w are normally reconstructed as semivowels is that they correspond to *i(:) and *u(:) in ablaut series.

Yes, and that is good reason to posit *w as being [w] in PIE, but that doesn't stop a shift to [ʋ] in early post-PIE times.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2026 8:35 am

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2026 3:12 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2026 4:45 pm While we can pretty confidently say that PIE didn't have **f, there's the off chance that PIE *w was really [w~ʋ~v] with just how frequently it turned into [ʋ] or [v] in IE daughters.

The reason why PIE *y and *w are normally reconstructed as semivowels is that they correspond to *i(:) and *u(:) in ablaut series.

Yes, and that is good reason to posit *w as being [w] in PIE, but that doesn't stop a shift to [ʋ] in early post-PIE times.

My understanding from what I've read about the development in individual families is that there is sufficient evidence that it was still [w] in Germanic, (Balto-)Slavic, Greek, Indo-Iranian, and Italic into historic times, so early post-IE doesn't sound right to me. But I don't have time to look for that evidence now, and most of my books are far away in Germany anyway.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2026 1:49 ammost of my books are far away in Germany anyway.

Off-topic, but you're no longer in Germany?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2026 3:24 pm

hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2026 1:49 ammost of my books are far away in Germany anyway.

Off-topic, but you're no longer in Germany?

Yes, since last year I'm posted to Dubai for my job.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2026 1:35 am

jal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2026 3:24 pm

hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2026 1:49 ammost of my books are far away in Germany anyway.

Off-topic, but you're no longer in Germany?

Yes, since last year I'm posted to Dubai for my job.

Wow! How has that been?

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2026 6:57 am

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2026 1:35 am

Wow! How has that been?

Nice at first - I always love to get to know a new country. March and April were challenging - we had to spend a lot of time indoors due to the missile attacks, evacuated our cats to Canada, and then my wife followed there to wait things out. Now we're back together, and the unbearable summer heat is relenting, so it hopefully will become a nice experience again.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2026 8:08 am the unbearable summer heat

I remember transiting through Dubai Airport in 2024 around the end of July. I have a photo of the in-flight display reporting the air temperature as 34°C at 1am. (And, when I had to go outside for a transfer, it was.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2026 8:15 am I remember transiting through Dubai Airport in 2024 around the end of July. I have a photo of the in-flight display reporting the air temperature as 34°C at 1am. (And, when I had to go outside for a transfer, it was.)

Yep. And it gets especially unbearable due to the humidity - the area is desert, but Dubai is on the coast of the Persian Gulf and air humidity gets really high due to the evaporation of the sea water. You go out even in the middle of the night and it still feels like stepping into a sauna. This place couldn't exist as an economic center without climatisation.