Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:23 pm Okay, I change my mind again - I am going to keep definiteness, albeit with it being optional.

I'm coining a new term: "whiplang", a conlang that changes back & forth between features extremely often, inducing feelings of whiplash.

Amusing.

I need to work some more on this language, which I shall name /xʷam=wə vʲax/ [xʷɒmwo vʲæx] khåmwo väkh, lit. "tongue (B)" /vʲax/ [vʲæx] väkh of the "people (A)" /xʷam/ [xʷɒm] khåm.

And yes, /xʷam/ [xʷɒm] Khåm (lit. "people" (A)) is the name of the ethnic group which traditionally speak this language. This has led to the use of /a-qʼáb xʷam/ [ɑqʼɑbꜜ xʷɒm] âq'âb khåm to refer to any non-Khåm.

I am going to add some more secondary aspect markers, which go in the pre-allocated secondary aspect slot in the verbal complex:

inchoative	-ɡʷa
cessative	-rʷɨ
prospective	-vʲə
retrospective	-kʰə

I have decided against my original split-ergative alignment and rather am going to adopt hierarchical alignment for Khåmwo Väkh. For the verb complex, what this entails is that for transitive clauses the former ergative/accusative marker will instead correspond to the argument higher on the personhood/animacy/topicality hierarchy and the former absolutive/nominative marker will instead correspond to the argument lower on the personhood/animacy/topicality hierarchy, regardless of which is agent and which is patient. For intransitive clauses, the absolutive/nominative marker will be used as it had been. As for NP's, the ergative/accusative and absolutive/nominative case distinction will be eliminated. Of course, there has to be some means of distinguishing a higher personhood/animacy/topicality agent from a lower personhood/animacy/topicality agent in transitive clauses. This will be accomplished by placing the following inverse marker in the verb complex after the higher personhood/animacy/topicality marker:

inverse

-ɲa

I have decided to reorganize my verb complexes so now the root always comes first, followed by the voice marker, followed by the lower personhood/animacy/topicality marker.

-

I am also making Khåmwo Väkh pro-drop, whereas previously it was not.

Here are the roots I used in my version of the Seven Kill Stele, which I am collecting because I am going to rewrite it:

Sky (B)	ɣə́ba
Ten thousand	nɨɣʷ
Thing (E)	ɕɨkʼa
Mankind (A)	ʎakʰa
Give	mə́xʷə
Exist	ŋʷaɡʷə
Be dead	qʷʼəmɨ

(I have decided to leave ambiguities in the orthography after alll, as putting in "silent" characters makes it look uglier. Also, I no longer mark pitch accent orthographically.)

Gëba nughmy sik'a läkäri mokhomijekene.
[ɣəꜜba nuɣʷmɨ ɕikʼa ʎækʰærʲi moꜜxʷomijekʰeɲe]
/ɣə́ba nɨɣʷ-mɨ ɕɨkʼa ʎakʰa=rʲɨ mə́xʷə-mɨ-jə-kʰə-ɲə/
sky.B ten.thousand-3.SG.E thing.E mankind.A=DAT give-3.SG.E-PST.PFV-RETRO-3.SG.B

Leka sik'a ghëbäri mokhomijekëläsä.
[ʎekʰa ɕikʼa ɣəꜜbærʲi moꜜxʷomijekʰəlæɕæ]
/ʎakʰa ɕɨkʼa ɣə́ba=rʲɨ mə́xʷə-mɨ-jə-kʰə-la-ɕa/
mankind.A thing.E sky.B=DAT give-3.SG.E-PST.PFV-RETRO-3.SG.A-NEG

Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa.
[qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa]
/qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa/
be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS

I have decided that definiteness is henceforth abolished. If one wants a definite-like effect, one should precede a noun with the appropriate demonstrative agreeing with it in gender and number.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:13 pm (I have decided to leave ambiguities in the orthography after alll, as putting in "silent" characters makes it look uglier. Also, I no longer mark pitch accent orthographically.)

The Roman alphabet can be a bit... unfortunate, perhaps... in its lack of letters. The quest for a non-ugly orthography can be an arduous one. Not marking pitch is probably the right call. It doesn't look like it's extremely important to the overall meaning being conveyed, and using underlining like that is kind-of odd-looking.

I have decided that definiteness is henceforth abolished. If one wants a definite-like effect, one should precede a noun with the appropriate demonstrative agreeing with it in gender and number.

Alas, poor definiteness

Gëba nughmy sik'a läkäri mokhomijekene.
[ɣəꜜba nuɣʷmɨ ɕikʼa ʎækʰærʲi moꜜxʷomijekʰeɲe]
/ɣə́ba nɨɣʷ-mɨ ɕɨkʼa ʎakʰa=rʲɨ mə́xʷə-mɨ-jə-kʰə-ɲə/
sky.B ten.thousand-3.SG.E thing.E mankind.A=DAT give-3.SG.E-PST.PFV-RETRO-3.SG.B

Leka sik'a gëbäri mokhomijekëläsä.
[ʎekʰa ɕikʼa ɣəꜜbærʲi moꜜxʷomijekʰəlæɕæ]
/ʎakʰa ɕɨkʼa ɣə́ba=rʲɨ mə́xʷə-mɨ-jə-kʰə-la-ɕa/
mankind.A thing.E sky.B=DAT give-3.SG.E-PST.PFV-RETRO-3.SG.A-NEG

Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa.
[qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa]
/qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa/
be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS

So, what's this mean? I'm not very good at reading glosses yet.

Rikhäwo k'egi sik'åwo t'angkåwo sotiri pitamytåghåqhû säjemytäsä.
[riçæꜜwo kʼeꜜɟi ɕikʼɒwo tʼaŋḱʰɒwo sʷoꜜtʰirʲi pʲʰitʰaꜜmɨtʰɒɣʷɒχɯ sæjemɨtʰæɕæ]
/rɨçá=wə kʼə́ɟɨ ɕɨkʼa=wə tʼaŋkʰa=wə sʷə́tʰɨ-rʲɨ pʲʰɨtʰá-mɨ-tʰa-ɣʷa-χɨ sajə-mɨ-tʰa-ɕa/
number.D=GEN quality.E thing.E=GEN word.A=GEN attribute.E=DAT keep-3.SG.E-1.SG-DESIRE-GERUND be.sure-3.SG.E-1.SG-NEG
I am not sure if I want to keep number marked on nouns.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:57 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:13 pm (I have decided to leave ambiguities in the orthography after alll, as putting in "silent" characters makes it look uglier. Also, I no longer mark pitch accent orthographically.)

The Roman alphabet can be a bit... unfortunate, perhaps... in its lack of letters. The quest for a non-ugly orthography can be an arduous one. Not marking pitch is probably the right call. It doesn't look like it's extremely important to the overall meaning being conveyed, and using underlining like that is kind-of odd-looking.

The big thing with pitch is that if there were fewer vowel qualities I'd mark pitch accent with diacritics... but due to the use of diacritics to vowel quality (to reduce the complexity of marking consonant quality) vowel letters are already very diacritic-heavy. Of course, I have also chosen to make marking of consonant quality ambiguous, because using vowels to mark consonant quality required adding lots of "silent vowels" to hint when consonant quality differed from the adjacent vowels' quality.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:57 pm

I have decided that definiteness is henceforth abolished. If one wants a definite-like effect, one should precede a noun with the appropriate demonstrative agreeing with it in gender and number.

Alas, poor definiteness

I was not using it consistently, and marking much on nouns seems against the overall style of this language, which seems focused on big, complex verbs and simple nouns (with "cases" being essentially just postpositional clitics, especially now that I have eliminated the distinction between ergative/accusative and absolutive/nominative cases).

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:57 pm

Gëba nughmy sik'a läkäri mokhomijekene.
[ɣəꜜba nuɣʷmɨ ɕikʼa ʎækʰærʲi moꜜxʷomijekʰeɲe]
/ɣə́ba nɨɣʷ-mɨ ɕɨkʼa ʎakʰa=rʲɨ mə́xʷə-mɨ-jə-kʰə-ɲə/
sky.B ten.thousand-3.SG.E thing.E mankind.A=DAT give-3.SG.E-PST.PFV-RETRO-3.SG.B

Leka sik'a gëbäri mokhomijekëläsä.
[ʎekʰa ɕikʼa ɣəꜜbærʲi moꜜxʷomijekʰəlæɕæ]
/ʎakʰa ɕɨkʼa ɣə́ba=rʲɨ mə́xʷə-mɨ-jə-kʰə-la-ɕa/
mankind.A thing.E sky.B=DAT give-3.SG.E-PST.PFV-RETRO-3.SG.A-NEG

Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa.
[qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa]
/qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa/
be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS

So, what's this mean? I'm not very good at reading glosses yet.

It's the Seven Kill Stele. To quote the wiki:

天生萬物以養人 Heaven brings forth innumerable things to nurture man.
人無一善以報天 Man has nothing good with which to recompense Heaven.
殺殺殺殺殺殺殺 Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill.

Of course my version simplifies it a good bit.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:20 pm It's the Seven Kill Stele. To quote the wiki:

天生萬物以養人 Heaven brings forth innumerable things to nurture man.
人無一善以報天 Man has nothing good with which to recompense Heaven.
殺殺殺殺殺殺殺 Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill.

Of course my version simplifies it a good bit.

Is there a reason you chose it? Would it be something the culture speaking it would produce?

I also notice Elves and Orcs are mentioned earlier, do they exist in the setting (if the language has one yet)?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:28 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:20 pm It's the Seven Kill Stele. To quote the wiki:

天生萬物以養人 Heaven brings forth innumerable things to nurture man.
人無一善以報天 Man has nothing good with which to recompense Heaven.
殺殺殺殺殺殺殺 Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill.

Of course my version simplifies it a good bit.

Is there a reason you chose it? Would it be something the culture speaking it would produce?

Nah, it just is a standard thing to translate these days for some reason.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:28 pm I also notice Elves and Orcs are mentioned earlier, do they exist in the setting (if the language has one yet)?

I have not created a setting for the language myself as of yet.

I have decided to make some improvements to my translation of the Seven Kill Stele to bring it more in line with the original Classical Chinese:

Ġëbba nuġmy sik'a läka jälåsåmâxûiri mohhomijekene.
[ɣəꜜba nuɣʷmɨ ɕikʼa ʎækʰa jælɒsʷɒmɑχɯrʲi moꜜxʷomijekʰeɲe]
/ɣə́ba nɨɣʷ-mɨ ɕɨkʼa ʎakʰa jala-sʷa-ma-χɨ=rʲɨ mə́xʷə-mɨ-jə-kʰə-ɲə/
sky.B ten.thousand-3.SG.E thing.E mankind.A take.care-PASS-3.SG.A-GERUND=DAT give-3.SG.E-PST.PFV-RETRO-3.SG.B

Leka ṙotammy sik'a ġëbbäri mohhomijekëlâṙáisä.
[ʎekʰa ʁʷotʰaꜜmɨ ɕikʼa ɣəꜜbærʲi moꜜxʷomijekʰəlɑʁaːɕæ]
/ʎakʰa ʁʷətʰá-mɨ ɕɨkʼa ɣə́ba=rʲɨ mə́xʷə-mɨ-jə-kʰə-la-ʁaː-ɕa/
mankind.A be.good-3.SG.E thing.E sky.B=DAT give-3.SG.E-PST.PFV-RETRO-3.SG.A-BACK-NEG

Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa.
[qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa]
/qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa/
be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS

It has been a while since I have done any work on this language, so here's the updated list of case-markings:

agentive	-na
patientive	-jə
dative/benefactive	-rʲɨ
genitive	-wə
instrumental/comitative	-xa
adessive	-tʷʼə
ablative	-sɨ
allative	-βa
inessive	-tʰə
elative	-mʲa
illative	-kʷʰɨ

The change here is that I have added agentive and patientive cases. Agentive case is used to mark inanimate agents and patientive case is used to mark animate patients. Note that these do not correlate with the agents and patients' genders, which do not imply animacy. This works alongside verbal agent and patient agreement and verbal inverse marking for indicating agents and patients.

I have decided to update my orthography by replacing ⟨kh gh qh rh⟩ with ⟨h ġ x ṙ⟩ because I really am not a fan of h-digraphs.