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Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:16 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
First, let's explain the significance of the initial hints:
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かふ (買ふ) | | [kʰò̞ᵝː] | (v.t.) "trade, exchange" — hints that h-row characters at the ends of words often indicate verbal endings: をたへ (wotae), すへ (sue), and をたへさく (wotaesaku) can consequently with some certainty be guessed to be verbal forms of some type. From this, it might be gathered that さく -saku is some sort of verbal marking. The Japanese cognate form is 買う (kau), also noting that words in in Ineshîmé may correspond to words in -au in Japanese.

むさじい (兎) | musaji | [mʉ̀ᵝ.s̪ɐ̞́ˑ.ʑì] | (n.) "rabbit" (definite: むさじいけ (兎け) musajiki or むさじいは (兎は) musajiya) — this is probably cognate to Japanese 兎 usagi (same meaning, but it has a prothetic m-, hinting at the cognates to むくつ (mukutsu) and むそう (muso). Looking up this word would also reveal that it has a dialect form 兔 wasaji, and notes that nouns once having initial u- tended to either develop prothetic consonants, or to break into /wo/; the wa- in wasaji is probably a hypercorrection, some dialects having a more likely inherited form wosaji. This was probably too abstruse to actually work.

ざひ (不ひ) | zai | [z̪ɛi] | strong negational suffix, "never", "does not ever" — hints that ぜひ (zei) has a negative function.

ふるとうく (古期) | furutoku | [ɸʷʉ́ᵝ.ɾ̪ʉ̀ᵝ.t̪ʰó̞ᵝˑ.kʰʉ̀ᵝ] | (n.) "former times" (definite: ふるとうくゐ (古期ゐ) furutoki) — reveals there are multiple different sorts of definite inflections. Also introduces the spelling rule that a w character following an u-character is probably pronounced identically to whatever the base consonant was, followed by whatever the w-character vowel is (くゐ ku-wi is read as ki); this is a hint at とぶえ (tobe being some sort of inflection, though you might expect it to be spelled とぶゑ (to-bu-we) rather than とぶえ (to-bu-e).

ておい゙ (強) | tyol | [t̪ʰʲó̞ᵝɫ] | (adj.) "strong, forceful" — provides the spelling of terminal -l, noting also that it developed from an earlier /j/-like sound.

ゐり (居り) | yuri | [jýᵝˑ.ɾ̪ʲì] | (v.) "to be somewhere, to be in a place" — provides a hint at the shift of /wi we/ to /ju jo/.

ふくて (梟て) | fukute | [ɸʷʉ̀ᵝ.kʰʉ́ᵝˑ.t̪ʰè̞] | (n.) definite form of ふく (梟 | fuku | [ɸʷʉ́ᵝˑ.kʰʉ̀ᵝ] ) "owl" — note that this word is clearly onomatopoeic ("fuku" sounds like it could be an owl noise"; provides a hint that くぽくて kukkute is another onomatopoeic word with a similar meaning.

Next, the things that have been guessed so far:
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As has been already noted, を (wo, among other readings) is an accusative marker, の (no) is a relational marker, とう (tou) is a quotative, instrumental, and comitative marker. A few more oblique hints have been provided in my responses already. A spelling with o-u for a short-o is also conventional, not an indication of an etymological long vowel or diphthong.

いふれ (iyure) is an inflection of a verb meaning "speak, say, tell", normally 語れ. The word 語 on its own means "language".

すず (suzu) does not, in context, mean "bell", but it has a vaguely related meaning, and is written with the same character (鈴), compare 鈴 (gangan, usually a large, more European-looking bell), and 鈴 (jinjin, a small bell, as of a bicycle, and is usually not intended to be musical).

なつ (natsu) has undergone no semantic differentiation at all, and is simply 夏 "summer".

くっく (kukku) is an onomatopoeia. It is related to くぽくて (kukkute); the difference in spelling is conventional, not etymological.

Everything that's explicitly revealed would look like this if glossed:
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むくつ くぽくて をたへ とぶえ、
Mukutsu kukkute wotae tobe,
[mʉ̀ᵝ.kʰʉ́ˑ.t̪͡s̪ʰʲỳᵝ kʰʉ́k.kʰʉ́ˑ.t̪ʰè̞ wò̞ᵝ.t̪ʰɐ̞́ˑ.è̞ t̪ʰó̞ᵝˑ.bè̞]
SOMETHING SOMETHING.DEFINITE VERB.SOME-INFLECTION VERB.SOME-INFLECTION

ぜひ むそう よたよるゐを いふれ、
Zei muso yotayori wo iyure,
[z̪ê̞ː mʉ́ˑ.s̪ò̞ᵝ jò.t̪ʰɐ̞́.jó̞ᵝˑ.ɾ̪ʲì wò̞ᵝ í.jýˑ.ɾ̪è̞]
SOME-NEGATIONAL-WORD SOMEETHING ADJECTIVE.NOUN.ACCUSATIVE speak.SOME-INFLECTION

おておでの すず より しほざけを すへ、
Otyode no suzu yori shōzakyo sue,
[ó̞ᵝ.t̪ʰʲó̞ᵝˑ.d̪è̞ n̪ò̞ᵝ s̪ʉ́ᵝˑ.z̪ʉ̀ᵝ jó̞ᵝ.ɾ̪ʲì ɕʰó̞ᵝː.z̪ɐ̞́ˑ.c͡çʰi̯ò̞̞ᵝ s̪ʉ́ᵝ.wè̞]
SOMETHING RELATIONAL not-a-bell-but-close.CASE-MARKER ADJECTIVE.NOUN.ACCUSATIVE verb.SOME-INFLECTION

「くっく」とう をたへさく なつ こうれ...
Kukku to wotaesaku natsu kore...
[kʰʉ́k.kʰʉ̀ᵝ t̪ʰò̞ wò̞ᵝ.t̪ʰɐ̞́.è̞.s̪ɐ̞́ˑ.kʰ ʉ̀ᵝ n̪ɐ̞́ˑ t̪͡s̪ʰʲỳᵝ kʰó̞ᵝˑ.ɾ̪è̞]
SOME-ONOMATOPOEIA.QUOTATIVE VERB.SOME-INFLECTION.SOME-SUFFIX summer MAYBE-A-VERB
(You can each still have any one word have its meaning, and whatever else is in the entry, revealed.)

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:46 am
by hwhatting
Not knowing any Japanese, I don't think I can contribute much more, but is the "not-a-bell-but-close" a gong?

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:10 am
by Rounin Ryuuji
It's actually connected with Japanese 涼しい suzushii — "clear, cool, bright, refreshing", and means "clarity, distinctness".

Linguisticat would have probably also figured out these:

むくつ (綺 | mukutsu) — a variant of むつく (美 | mutsuku) "beauty, prettiness" (note Japanese 美しい utsukushii)
むそう (嘘 | muso) — "lie, falsehood" (note Japanese 嘘 uso)
をたふ、をたへ、をたへさく (歌ふ、歌へ、歌へさく | wotō, wotae-, wotaesaku) — the root means "sing"
とぶ、とぶえ (飛、飛え | tobu, tobe) — different forms of a verb meaning "fly"

They would probably also have figured out that all the sentence-final words in -e are part of a chain of verbs meaning "do this... and this... and this...".

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:35 pm
by foxcatdog
[Va fydh sanleann or røthødd dachit leathat wech daf ge, va leannea amett nat lec em cear vet.

Et ed tœœnis teaval lea onnar veat not atona saavy dean vet each.

Va ameeceallec cense thu hroodsenn ed ramflot hrøøn es de.


(edits made since i messed up some details)
(edit added another sentence)

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:42 pm
by bradrn
thethief3 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:35 pm Va fydh sanleann or røthødd dachit leathat wech daf ge, va leannea amett nat lec em cear vet.

Et ed tœœnis teaval lea onar veat atona saavy dean vet each.
Firstly, we haven’t finished Rounin Ryuuji’s sentence yet. Secondly, we can’t guess anything without knowing some details about this language.

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:47 pm
by foxcatdog
bradrn wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:42 pm Firstly, we haven’t finished Rounin Ryuuji’s sentence yet. Secondly, we can’t guess anything without knowing some details about this language.
Rounin Ryujin admitted his language wasn't going anywhere through if you still want to finish it you can try.
Secondly it's an ie language so you can guess the details by looking for cognates.

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:03 pm
by bradrn
thethief3 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:47 pm Rounin Ryujin admitted his language wasn't going anywhere
Where did he say that?
Secondly it's an ie language so you can guess the details by looking for cognates.
Thanks for clarifying.

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:07 pm
by foxcatdog
bradrn wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:03 pm Where did he say that?
He strongly implied it by giving us the stuff linguisticat would have guessed

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:07 pm
by Travis B.
thethief3 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:07 pm
bradrn wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:03 pm Where did he say that?
He strongly implied it by giving us the stuff linguisticat would have guessed
Until he actually says it, he hasn't said it.

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:25 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
I neither said it, nor meant to imply it.

The parts about what Linguisticat would've probably immediately recognised were because they couldn't take part; so, the guesser who could guess them and supply the others with information being absent, I supplied them, and shall supply more if no future guesses turn up anything.

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:30 am
by foxcatdog
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:25 pm I neither said it, nor meant to imply it.

The parts about what Linguisticat would've probably immediately recognised were because they couldn't take part; so, the guesser who could guess them and supply the others with information being absent, I supplied them, and shall supply more if no future guesses turn up anything.
okay we will continue with your one for now.

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:14 pm
by hwhatting
Fa co's mortun?

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:38 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
What does that mean?

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:01 pm
by WarpedWartWars
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:38 pm What does that mean?
I'm guessing it's a sentence to guess the meaning of.

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:36 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
It reminds me curiously of Romance words that would mean something like, "Has this died?"

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:55 pm
by WarpedWartWars
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:36 pm It reminds me curiously of Romance words that would mean something like, "Has this died?"
I was thinking if it was related to the Romance languages, then that "mortun" would likely have some meaning related to death. Then again, I could be wrong.

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:47 am
by hwhatting
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:36 pm It reminds me curiously of Romance words that would mean something like, "Has this died?"
Correctly guessed. Literally it's:
Fa co's mortun?
INT this-N.SG.NOM be-PRES.ACT.3SG.CLIT dead-N.SG.NOM
Is this dead?

Re: Jonlang's sentence guessing game

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:55 pm
by WarpedWartWars
hwhatting wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:47 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:36 pm It reminds me curiously of Romance words that would mean something like, "Has this died?"
Correctly guessed. Literally it's:
Fa co's mortun?
INT this-N.SG.NOM be-PRES.ACT.3SG.CLIT dead-N.SG.NOM
Is this dead?
That was quick!