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Re: Mis-hearings
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:29 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:20 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:22 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:41 pm
I don't think that would stop semantic drift from occurring.
Tis true.
Actually, I am surprised that StG does not use something like *
Zäser myself.
Because German
never had a /k/ > /ts/ shift. Palatalization of /k/ before front vowels is a Romance thing, not a Continental West Germanic one.
Caesar is usually pronounced as if it was spelled
Zäsar in German, but when West Germanic borrowed the word from Latin
Caesar, this was still pronounced ['kaesar]. Thus,
Kaiser is indeed closer to the original Latin word than
"Zäsar".
I imagine the Caesar, as (I assume) [t͡sʰɛː.zaɐ] is a spelling pronunciation?
Re: Mis-hearings
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:05 am
by Travis B.
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:20 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:22 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:41 pm
I don't think that would stop semantic drift from occurring.
Tis true.
Actually, I am surprised that StG does not use something like *
Zäser myself.
Because German
never had a /k/ > /ts/ shift. Palatalization of /k/ before front vowels is a Romance thing, not a Continental West Germanic one.
Caesar is usually pronounced as if it was spelled
Zäsar in German, but when West Germanic borrowed the word from Latin
Caesar, this was still pronounced ['kaesar]. Thus,
Kaiser is indeed closer to the original Latin word than
"Zäsar".
So StG
Kaiser is actually a WGmc borrowing rather than a later Latinate borrowing?
Re: Mis-hearings
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:04 am
by WeepingElf
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:29 pm
I imagine the Caesar, as (I assume) [t͡sʰɛː.zaɐ] is a spelling pronunciation?
Sort of.
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:05 am
So StG
Kaiser is actually a WGmc borrowing rather than a later Latinate borrowing?
Yep.
Re: Mis-hearings
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:37 am
by Rounin Ryuuji
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:04 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:29 pm
I imagine the Caesar, as (I assume) [t͡sʰɛː.zaɐ] is a spelling pronunciation?
Sort of.
Sort-of? Romance-influenced, I would guess?
Re: Mis-hearings
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:46 am
by WeepingElf
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:37 am
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:04 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:29 pm
I imagine the Caesar, as (I assume) [t͡sʰɛː.zaɐ] is a spelling pronunciation?
Sort of.
Sort-of? Romance-influenced, I would guess?
Yes.
Re: Mis-hearings
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:45 pm
by Ketsuban
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:11 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:54 pm
The inherited English form would be expected to be either
*Caser or
*Coser, apparently.
Only if
Caesar were inherited from PWGmc as an earlier loan from Latin by OE, though.
Which it was (
cāser is attested in the East Anglian royal genealogy and the Rituale Ecclesiae Dunelmensis;
cāsaer is found in the Liber Vitae Dunelmensis; the derived
cāseren "empress",
cāserlīċ "imperial" and
cāserdōm "imperial rule" are also attested); it just never made its way into Modern English.