Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:55 amThis makes me wonder: How would you translate studieren into English?

Frislander wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:02 am

Vijay wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:53 pm In Malayalam, you "knock" a drum, "blow" a flute, "read" all other musical instruments I can think of, and I believe "put" recorded media. (This last part is like Spanish).

On a related note traditionally at the University of Cambridge you "read" your subject rather than "study" it (this usage is declining though as Cambridge assimilates to the majority of British universities linguistically).

akamchinjir wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:01 amEarlier this week heard someone (primarily a Cantonese-speaker, but speaking English) distinguish between Chinese and Mandarin.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:56 pm

Aftovota wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:08 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:43 pm As I have mentioned previously, my idiolect has marked palatalization of /t/ in quite a few words where GA lacks it, and I notice that at least my mother has this as well. (I can confirm she pronounces sister as [ˈsɘɕtɕʁ̩(ː)].) But one word in particular that sticks out which I notice myself having palatalization is tarantula, which has not only the usual palatalization of historical /t/ before /j/ but also palatalization of the initial /t/, as [tɕʰʁ̩ːˈʁɛ̃tʃɯːɰə(ː)].

That's not unexpected palatalization so much as syncope then retraction before /r/, like in <tree> [tʃʰɹiː], <straight> [stʃɹeɪ̯ʔ]~[ʃtʃɹeɪ̯ʔ], or <dry> [dʒɹɑɪ̯]. If I dropped the first schwa in <tarantula> I'd produce something like [ˈtʃʰɹæ̃ʔtʃɫ̩ə].

EDIT: That pronunciation of <sister> is unusual, though, I agree. Also, I forgot about a source of historical /j/.

The difference is that the /r/ in my tarantula is syllabic, and normally syllabic /r/ does not trigger retraction and affrication of /t/ in NAE. Similar examples for me include fac[tʃ]ory, re[ɕtɕ]aurant, and refrac[tʃ]ory.

anteallach wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:53 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:56 pm

Aftovota wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:08 am

That's not unexpected palatalization so much as syncope then retraction before /r/, like in <tree> [tʃʰɹiː], <straight> [stʃɹeɪ̯ʔ]~[ʃtʃɹeɪ̯ʔ], or <dry> [dʒɹɑɪ̯]. If I dropped the first schwa in <tarantula> I'd produce something like [ˈtʃʰɹæ̃ʔtʃɫ̩ə].

EDIT: That pronunciation of <sister> is unusual, though, I agree. Also, I forgot about a source of historical /j/.

The difference is that the /r/ in my tarantula is syllabic, and normally syllabic /r/ does not trigger retraction and affrication of /t/ in NAE. Similar examples for me include fac[tʃ]ory, re[ɕtɕ]aurant, and refrac[tʃ]ory.

In most of these words I think this is due to compression phenomena; they have different forms with different numbers of syllables, sometimes even within the same idiolect. (E.g. I can pronounce restaurant with either two or three syllables.) The compressed form naturally gets the affrication and retraction before /r/, giving forms like [ˈɹɛʂtʂɹɒnt]; if that [tʂ] then comes to be thought of as /tʃ/ rather than /t/, it's not that surprising that it spreads into the three syllable form, giving [ˈɹɛʃtʃəɹɒnt] or similar. This happens in my accent [1] too, so it's not something particularly localised.

It doesn't seem to happen, for me, in words where the /tər/ comes before the stress, like tarantula or terrific, and indeed I think that even if these words are compressed I have an actual [tɹ] there without the retraction and affrication. However, I don't find it surprising, and I've certainly heard pronunciations of terrific with affrication.

It's much harder to explain sister that way, though, and I've not noticed that in British English. (I guess you could come up with some explanation involving compression followed by affrication in sister in law and it extending by analogy back to sister, but that doesn't seem very likely.) Is it just that word, or do other words historically ending /stər/ get the same treatment?

[1] Mild Northern English of the sort which has TRAP=BATH but not FOOT=STRUT. But I've also heard pronunciations of restaurant like that from people with more "SSBE" type accents.

xxx wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:46 am a word can mean a thousand things depending on the space and the time it is pronounced ...
at the limit, each context of employment activates a new face ... which can become official (in the sense of sedimented in a dictionary) depending on historical conditions ...

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:58 pmAnd what effect does sulcalisation often have on neighbouring consonants?

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:58 pm Oh, an alternative way of looking at changes like ter > tcher... sulcalisation!

Rhotic vowels are typically sulcalised - indeed, /3/ is typically sulcalised even in non-rhotic dialects. And what effect does sulcalisation often have on neighbouring consonants? Affrication!

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:35 pm

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:58 pm Oh, an alternative way of looking at changes like ter > tcher... sulcalisation!

Rhotic vowels are typically sulcalised - indeed, /3/ is typically sulcalised even in non-rhotic dialects. And what effect does sulcalisation often have on neighbouring consonants? Affrication!

I should note that in addition to /ər/ or /ɜr/ (this distinction is artificial in my dialect, since the two are homophonous in it), /uː ʊ w/ also trigger palatalization and/or affrication in coronals, particularly /t/. I personally normally only have palatalization without affrication or with only very slight affrication, with the exception of the word two which I sometimes pronounce as [tsʲʰʉ̯u(ː)], but I have heard people with pronunciations of words such as twenty with very marked palatalization and affrication (i.e. as [ˈtɕʰwʌ̃ɾ̃i(ː)]~[ˈtɕʰwʌ̃ːi̯] in an particularly annoying radio commercial for a local lawyer).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:45 am I distinctly remember that from a young age I pronounced mister as [ˈmɘɕtɕʁ̩(ː)] before I switched to the pronunciation [ˈmɘsʲːʁ̩(ː)], which is more common here.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:19 am I don't think of affrication as an SSBE thing, and I have very little of it. I don't think I've ever heard it in 'terrific' (nor 'torrential').